Fires In The West

[mawnansmiff]

"....It's about thinning out the density of trees per acre.... "

Jesse, I get that bit and totally agree, firebreaks would certainly help but raking the dead leaves?

Regards,

Jay.?

 

[unadoptedlamp]

I'm in the PNW, Canada. In Victoria, the fog horn at the end of block has been wailing constantly to keep ships from sinking off the coast. I rarely hear it until the winter, except now the sky is choked with smoke. Those fires are a fair distance away from here. I can't see the mountains of the United States from the end of the street for the smoke.

Forests in Canada (British Columbia and now Alberta) are being killed by a pine beetle. And now a spruce beetle (which few people are even talking about because the pine beetle was so bad and they just want a break from it all). The amount of dead wood is staggering. Impossible to clear out as well. It is just too vast of an area. Once dead for more than 1-2 years, the wood has no commercial value. Not even for pulp. It's essentially just a load of giant match sticks waiting for a spark.

We will see much more of this in years to come. It's just a matter of time for conditions to be right and enough lightning strikes to start it off. Quite sad, really.

And, unfortunately, this is mainly due to climate change. The beetles in Canada are natural, but with warm winters, they are not killed off in quantities as before to keep them in balance. The reason why the outbreak is slowing down is simply because there are fewer trees for them to kill. Anyone who studies these outbreaks is well aware of the reason. Communication to the public is another matter entirely.

It's a long story, but my source is from personally mapping these outbreaks and from colleagues who research them. Most people would be very surprised to see the extent of what is actually happening. Even people who live in areas where the outbreaks are do not fully grasp the magnitude.

It's not entirely on the public radar until they start to burn. However, I've spent a lot of time flying around in helicopters and being airborne with a view from horizon to horizon of nothing but dead trees. It is truly staggering. The first time I saw it from the air, it had a very profound emotional impact on me and I've seen countless forests from all over the world from that vantage point. It is an extradorinaiy sight that I wish more people could experience.

But... carry on! Climate change is a hoax and nothing is real until your community is up in smoke. That's about the only time when reality seems to knock on the door of some folks. Unfortunately.

 

[olkofri]

 

[unadoptedlamp]

You hit the nail on the head olkofri. The pine beetle is headed toward Saskatchewan too. I've recently mapped outbreaks in Jack Pine, which is particularly disturbing. But I won't delve into forest ecology here.

Soon enough, there will be enough mills shut down and communities shuttered because what they relied on for employment is no longer there. It already happened in British Columbia for anyone interested to look into it. I've personally been to more of these towns than I care to know about. The ruin is a real tragedy. Funny thing though... those are always the people (the few remaining who are trying to sell their houses for any price they can get) who now grasp what has happened. Unfortunately, as I said, it is often a direct impact, a hole in the hull of your ship that opens the eyes. But then, well... anyone want a house for $50,000 on a beautiful lake? Minus the dead trees of course, but it's a steal. I know of many. You can get them down to $25k with some talking.

My climate science friends are all paid off. I have no idea who is paying them, but you should see their beach side mansions paid for by the lies they tell. They clink glasses every night and say stuff like "How about that?!?" Hell, I don't know why they show up for work anymore. They must all be millionaires by now. The pockets of people funding this disinformation are deep. I mean, they're nothing compared to the energy industries. Nothing. People who study climate have a licence to print money. If only I could find out who is paying them... I'd be a billionaire too.

Or they're just incredibly daft. I mean, spending an entire career studying fiction? Who could possibly be so blind? Surly they can read an ice core as well as you or I and see that this is just a whopper of a coincidence! They're mad! Hey, dumbasses! Didn't you ever hear about seasons? It's summer now and you still think it's winter! Pfffft! Imbeciles. Am I right? C'mon, am I right?!? Some of the dumbest people I've ever met in my life!

We're profoundly lucky to have scholars such as yourself to point out the error of their ways. No doubt they take notice and privately weep at the deception they propagate, but can't help but continue to manufacture for all of the delicious, impossible to decline handouts that these researchers get. I'll introduce you to some of my friends. They'll make you puke with the greed and idiocy that they spew. I guarantee it.

 

[georged]

Given the immensity of the territory involved, it's a safe bet that only a small fraction of the perps are getting caught:

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Man armed with machete accused of setting six wildfires - https://www.kezi.com/content/news/Man-armed-with-machete-accused-of-setting-six-wildfires-571947561.html

Man accused of intentionally starting fire in woods near Tahoe City - https://www.abc10.com/article/news/crime/man-accused-of-intentionally-starting-fire-in-woods-near-tahoe-city/103-83bdfe8b-d3ce-4558-b222-66591640d7eb

[UPDATE] Man Accused of Lighting Six Fires in and Around Ukiah Yesterday Arrested This Morning – Redheaded Blackbelt - https://kymkemp.com/2020/08/13/man-accused-of-lighting-six-fires-in-and-around-ukiah-yesterday-arrested-this-morning/

https://www.sanluisobispo.com/news/local/article245089880.html

Arson arrest made after brush fire burns hillside east of Santa Paula - https://www.vcstar.com/story/news/local/communities/santa-paula/2020/08/20/arson-arrest-made-brush-fire-east-santa-paula/3404121001/

Arsonist arrested in Pablo - https://www.kpax.com/news/western-montana-news/arsonist-arrested-in-pablo

Suspect arrested for Arson in Anderson Hay Fire in Kittitas County - https://www.nbcrightnow.com/fires/suspect-arrested-for-arson-in-anderson-hay-fire-in-kittitas-county/article_6ca0d7f0-e7bf-11ea-ae5a-2baf38a0740d.html

Sonoma County Deputies Arrest Alleged Arsonist Who Admitted 'Having a Bad Day' - https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2020/08/30/healdsburg-arson-suspect-having-bad-day-arrested/

September 2 Eugene OR Elias Pendergrass charged with arson Man arrested on arson allegation in wildfire west of Eugene, deputies say - https://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/2020/09/man-arrested-on-arson-allegation-in-wildfire-west-of-eugene-deputies-say.html

Sept 7 Salinas CA: Anita Esquivel charged with arson Woman accused of intentionally starting fires on Highway 101 arrested - KION546 - https://kion546.com/news/2020/09/07/woman-accused-of-intentionally-starting-fires-on-highway-101-arrested/

Sept 8 Spokane WA: Christine Comello charged with arson Arson suspect arrested after allegedly starting multiple fires in Spokane on Monday - https://www.khq.com/news/arson-suspect-arrested-after-allegedly-starting-multiple-fires-in-spokane-on-monday/article_62df8a40-f223-11ea-8a02-af6f5dca5965.html

Sept 9: Man seen starting fires at Oregon state park, fire chief says Man seen starting fires at Oregon state park, fire chief says - https://news3lv.com/news/nation-world/man-seen-starting-fires-at-oregon-state-park-local-fire-chief-says

Sept 10 Puyallup, WA Jeffrey Acorde (Antifa) charged with arson BLM activist livestreams his own arrest after allegedly setting fire in Washington State - https://thepostmillennial.com/antifa-activist-charged-for-fire-set-in-washington [https://archive.is/nJ9OU]

Sept 10 Parkland WA: 2 men arrested for arson State Patrol: Man arrested for setting fire near SR-512 - https://komonews.com/news/local/state-patrol-man-arrested-for-setting-fire-near-sr-512 ‘We got another one’: Second man arrested for intentionally starting brush fire in Pierce County - https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/we-got-another-one-second-man-arrested-intentionally-starting-brush-fire-pierce-county/5CA2YAQTEBBBZBOFKIRDGGKOLY/

Sept 10 Junction City OR : Milton Loice Moran, 48, was arrested for lighting a mortar-type firework north of the city. Are Antifa Members & & Arsonists Beginning Coordinated Fires in Oregon? - Entertainment Overdose - https://entertainmentoverdose.co.uk/news/are-antifa-members-arsonists-beginning-coordinated-fires-in-oregon-257848.html

Sept 11 Alameda: Michael Jarrod Bakkela charged with arson BREAKING: Arson charges filed in Almeda Fire - https://ktvl.com/news/local/live-press-conference-regarding-almeda-and-obenchain-fires Man accused of setting fires near Oregon homes during the Almeda Fire - https://kpic.com/news/local/man-accused-of-setting-fires-near-oregon-homes-during-the-almeda-fire

Sept 11 Springfield/Dexter, OR Jonathan Maas charged with arson Springfield man accused of starting small brush fire in Dexter - https://www.kezi.com/content/news/Springfield-man-accused-of-starting-small-brush-fire-in-Dexter-572385001.html

Sept. 14, 2020, “Man arrested for starting at least 7 brush fires along I-205”. Man arrested for starting at least 7 brush fires along I-205 - https://www.kgw.com/article/news/crime/man-arrested-for-starting-at-least-7-brush-fires-along-i-205/283-a659a1ed-db3b-4f03-9583-a9fee05a5033

 

[olkofri]

Given the immensity of the territory involved, it's a safe bet that only a small fraction of the perps are getting caught

And if they're 'peaceful protesters' they'll be let go.

 

[bullet08]

When did Raymond Chandler write Philip Marlowe books? Remember reading you don't even throw out burnt matches in California. I guess people became dumber since then.

 

[unadoptedlamp]

Given the immensity of the territory involved, it's a safe bet that only a small fraction of the perps are getting caught

The biggest "perp" out there is mother nature. Some fires are started by arsonists, there is no doubt about that, but the majority are caused by lightning strikes. It is a perfectly normal function of the ecosystem, most of the time.

What is not "normal" is fire suppression activities and on a broader scale, forest management objectives. Climatic changes are also an immense factor. A lot of timber out there (almost all of it) is seen as standing money by some interests - mainly those who control what happens with that timber. When it is going up in smoke, crews are sent in to put out the fires and secure the timber supply. It is literally money going up in smoke. Not to mention communities, livelihoods, etc.

In a distant lifetime now, I used to be one of those crew members. I would regularly get dropped off by a helicopter in a patch of forest in the middle of nowhere with pumps, hand tools, a little bit of food and a whole lot of hose to put them out. It cost the tax payer many millions. Made good money that put me through university though! The only reason I was there 95% of the time was to protect timber supply. Community protection or special interest protection of structures was very rare.

However, this long, long history of fire suppression has the knock-on effect of increasing fuel loads, leading to ever bigger and more intense fires. Compounded with things like drought, and well, good luck.
We're starting to see the impact of that now. In the past, the massive campaigns ala "smokey the bear" were very popular. Some people of a generation may remember that. It had a much bigger impact on the collective psyche than many realize. Slowly, forest management is moving away from this mindset, but we will be dealing with the effects for a long time.

As with anything, the story is often complicated. Imagine how someone who is not a pipe smoker views restoring a pipe. "So what? You file this bit a little, polish that and bam, there's your pipe." Easy-peasy, and you could hardly call it "woodwork". Or so the impression is.

But we know it is not that simple. Looking to other areas where people have a very long history in studying and working with issues of any kind, it is exactly the same. It is far more complex than it seems.

It's a very unfortunate perfect storm. It has been happening with more frequency. This has been obvious to a lot of so called "experts" for some time now, but it is only recently where it has been coming home to roost on the doorsteps of a lot more people who were otherwise blissfully unaware or uninterested.

 

[davek]

The biggest "perp" out there is mother nature. Some fires are started by arsonists, there is no doubt about that, but the majority are caused by lightning strikes. It is a perfectly normal function of the ecosystem, most of the time.

What is not "normal" is fire suppression activities and on a broader scale, forest management objectives. Climatic changes are also an immense factor. A lot of timber out there (almost all of it) is seen as standing money by some interests - mainly those who control what happens with that timber. When it is going up in smoke, crews are sent in to put out the fires and secure the timber supply. It is literally money going up in smoke. Not to mention communities, livelihoods, etc.

In a distant lifetime now, I used to be one of those crew members. I would regularly get dropped off by a helicopter in a patch of forest in the middle of nowhere with pumps, hand tools, a little bit of food and a whole lot of hose to put them out. It cost the tax payer many millions. Made good money that put me through university though! The only reason I was there 95% of the time was to protect timber supply. Community protection or special interest protection of structures was very rare.

However, this long, long history of fire suppression has the knock-on effect of increasing fuel loads, leading to ever bigger and more intense fires. Compounded with things like drought, and well, good luck.
We're starting to see the impact of that now. In the past, the massive campaigns ala "smokey the bear" were very popular. Some people of a generation may remember that. It had a much bigger impact on the collective psyche than many realize. Slowly, forest management is moving away from this mindset, but we will be dealing with the effects for a long time.

As with anything, the story is often complicated. Imagine how someone who is not a pipe smoker views restoring a pipe. "So what? You file this bit a little, polish that and bam, there's your pipe." Easy-peasy, and you could hardly call it "woodwork". Or so the impression is.

But we know it is not that simple. Looking to other areas where people have a very long history in studying and working with issues of any kind, it is exactly the same. It is far more complex than it seems.

It's a very unfortunate perfect storm. It has been happening with more frequency. This has been obvious to a lot of so called "experts" for some time now, but it is only recently where it has been coming home to roost on the doorsteps of a lot more people who were otherwise blissfully unaware or uninterested.

We are bordering on a political discussion here, so let's take a little care. However, in reading about/researching all this I came across this recent bill. Maybe it will help.

California, U.S. Forest Service Establish Shared Long-Term Strategy to Manage Forests and Rangelands | Governor of California

Agreement will improve coordination to reduce wildfire risks on federal and state lands Funding included in the federal Great American Outdoors Act Agreement comes as Lake Fire burns in Angeles…

www.gov.ca.gov

 

[jpmcwjr]

What is not "normal" is fire suppression activities and on a broader scale, forest management objectives. Climatic changes are also an immense factor. A lot of timber out there (almost all of it) is seen as standing money by some interests - mainly those who control what happens with that timber. When it is going up in smoke, crews are sent in to put out the fires and secure the timber supply. It is literally money going up in smoke. Not to mention communities, livelihoods, etc.

In CA, almost 60% of the standing timber is in gov't hands.

Over all the put out at any cost is a huge factor in our predicament.

Do you think it's possible to cut wide fire breaks in our public (and private) forests?
And might that be effective? Probably 1/4 Miles wide, I am guessing.

 

[georged]

Do you think it's possible to cut wide fire breaks in our public (and private) forests?
And might that be effective? Probably 1/4 Miles wide, I am guessing.

While a surprisingly narrow cut will stop a smallish/routine fire, if it tops and the accompanying dynamics kick in---rising hot air creates a low pressure zone, ground level inrushing air (sometimes over 100mph) oxygenates the fire more which makes it hotter in a feedback loop that only stops when there's nothing left to burn---the enormous updraft doesn't just carry sparks aloft, but material of significant weight. That's how entire residential subdivisions that contained no trees or rough land burned to the ground a few years ago in California. Meteoric "flaming sky junk" fell on their roofs from fires that were miles away.

So, is a quarter mile wide enough? Answer: it depends. In normal times it would be more than enough. But times aren't normal.

fwiw, cutting a quarter mile SQUARE of mature forest is an enormous task (remember, if the wood isn't hauled away, you've only made the problem worse), a quarter mile strip that ran for many miles would be astronomical. And then you'd only have one. A single line on a map. To be an effective pre-emptive fire containment strategy, there would have to be hundreds of them.