Expensive Factory Pipes Vs. Handmade & Cost Difference.

[fordm60]

Hi all,
So I was reading a thread on fancy/expensive factory pipes and how many will spend into the thousands for one. Yet I have some handmade pipes by Clark Layton and all three cost much less than a Dunhill, Castello, Barling or any of the expensive factory pipes you can name. Now here is my only weak point in my debate, I own none of the expensive factory pipes, but I find it extremely difficult to believe they smoke better than my Layton pipes. I would even bet against that happening.
Now I am not comparing the thousand plus dollar handmades and prefer to ignore them in this debate as they cost more than the expensive factory pipes we are discussing. My example is Clark and none of my pipes have cost more than $400 so far and the engineering is spot on, everything I know to look at is perfect. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I find his pipes to be beautiful, so that is not something measurable. Clark is not the only carver out there making extremely nice pipes at a cost less than any of the expensive factory pipes.
I completely understand people who collect, like Sable and his Barlings. So I feel we can ignore that as a reason in this debate. Or if the expensive factory pipes just floats your boat. But I read over and over it is how the pipe smokes that is the key. Some say the expensive factory pipes bring in a beauty aspect yet that is not measurable. Or that a expensive factory pipe will produce a better smoker.
So basically I am curious why those who want a beauty, in their eyes, perfectly engineered pipe mess with the expensive factory pipes at all? A good handmade by a carver that knows his/her business can be much less in cost than a expensive factory pipe and will smoke as well as any expensive factory pipe.
I am not trying to start a argument, but I am trying to start a debate. I really am curious.
Thank you.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I have Beckers and I have Dunhills and I have a range from those, and I do not find that anything smokes better than another. Price has nothing to do with it. You're buying name, brand, style, and details, that's it. Some will argue that they like theirs better, and like discussing about favorite colors, you can't argue with perceptions.

I do like smoking my more expensive pipes though. They are some of my better looking, feeling pipes. But, when I go to save up for a more expensive pipe, whether it smokes better than a $50 bucket pipe doesn't even run through my mind. I just buy it, because I want it for some aesthetic reason.

I won't be buying another Dunhill though. To me, Savinelli makes a better looking pipe in each of the genres that Dunhill makes.

 

[derfargin]

+1 Cosmic.

 

[sablebrush52]

This is a very interesting question. My take is as follows. You can buy a great smoking factory made pipe for a lot less than $400, and a lot less than a quality handmade, as evinced by the devotees of Savinelli or Stanwell. Savinelli makes a lot of different models at different price points, so you can spend a little or a lot for a Savinelli. Do you get the same material quality at various price points? No. But you might get as good a smoke.
So why do some folks spend a lot of money on a factory high grade, as opposed to a mid level artisan piece? I dunno, but I would hazard a guess that they like the carving, shaping, finish, stem work and smoking experience better than that provided by an artisan. Some folks are devotees of purely classical shapes, and not too many artisans can actually carve a decent classical billiard, though they can produce their own interpretations. Not many would know the difference between a billiard curvet and a billiard straight.
As for machine made VS hand made, there's no real quality difference. Besides, many "handmade" pipes are pretty much shaped on a lathe and drilled with a press - both of which are machines. So many "handmade" pipes might be better described as hand finished, which is pretty much what high grade factory pieces are.
Ultimately, one buys what one finds appealing. That might be a $100 Savinelli, a $1000 Savinelli, or a $400 Layton.

 

[warren]

I simply purchase pipes which meet my criteria. I would buy an artisan pipe if I stumbled onto one which met my criteria. One of those criteria would be that is must capture my eye. Any pipe I purchase will be bent and very conventional in shape and appearance. Also, I never start the day with the intent to purchase a pipe. It is always a spontaneous or impulse purchase, always.

 

[doctorbob]

What is the difference between a billiard curvet and a billiard straight?
Not an attempt to derail, just very curious.
Bob

 

[pitchfork]

If you're talking Castello, their shaping and styling are fairly unique. They appear to be very well made (I've never owned one), so if you like the look, you're apt to go for a Castello. Also, the Castello "factory" is more like a large workshop than a factory as such, so I'm not sure how that figures into the analysis.
With regards to Dunhill, it's almost impossible to find artisan pipes in the same classical shapes in the same sizes you find from Dunhill. And Dunhills are typically good smoking pipes with thin, comfortable stems (though not as thin as on many artisan pipes). Personally, I love the look of certain Dunhill shapes, and they smoke great for me.
A few decades ago, you could have thrown Charatan into the discussion along with Castello and Dunhill. Although their place in the hobby has changed quite a bit between the acquisition by Dunhill and the rise of artisan pipes, at one time they were popular mainly for their unique shapes and attractive grain (not their smoking qualities per se).
All in all, many of us tend to buy pipes in part based on how they look, so if you want a pipe that looks like a Castello or a Dunhill, you're apt to buy a Castello or a Dunhill.

 

[mothernaturewilleatusallforbreakfast]

My only reason for buying more expensive factory pipes (Dunhill for me) over handmade artisan pipes is shape. There are not many artisan pipe makers doing the classics, at least not regularly or consistently. I mean there are a few that creatively recreate the classics in their own way; Kyriazanos, Linder, Chheda, Parks, etc. I see these artisans doing their spin on the classics, but many artisan makers are producing more freehand shaped pipes. I'm a classics guy and don't see many classically shaped pipes being turned out by artisans, and when I do they tend to be too much of a stretch for me to like enough to buy. This is really the only reason I am more into expensive factory pipes over handmade artisans. I'm also not a big fan of adornments; rings, inlays, and other types of additions; which I find less of in factory and a lot more of in artisan. It's just a preference thing, and of course, preferences change over time. I was really into handmade artisan pipes a few years back and ended up letting them go because my preferences changed to expensive factory pipes. Again, strictly based on shaping; as both types of pipes are almost always well engineered.

 

[fordm60]

I am with warren on that I do not set out to buy a pipe. Something catches my eye and I go from there.
Sable brings up an interesting point in that perhaps the artisan Carvers may not do classic shapes to purchaser's standard. But I have seen some that looked rather spot on for a classic shape.
I was not clear it appears on a point. Yes, you can get a Savinelli or Peterson etc for much less. I had cut those out in my mind for this instead concentrating on the factory pipes that are much more than the $400 limit I had in my mind.
Also I may not completely understand how the expensive factory pipes are made. I will do some research on that. To me $400 is a heck of alot of money. I have to save and plan for that for a while. As such I want supurb engineering and atheistically pleasing pipe which smokes like heaven. To me a Dunhill is simply too much cost for what I strongly suspect will not smoke better than my Layton. But if I had that kind of money I suspect I would get a Dunhill just to see. At the same time with that kind of disposable income I would also be open the a comparably priced artisan pipe. In my mind one carver paying 100% attention to my pipe is not something a factory pipe can equal. (Caveat that the carver in question is one that has his work down pat.)
So this is even more fun to think about as most here answered that it may be the shape and look of the factory pipe not necessarily the smokability and engineering along with simple cost. Which I had not really thought of.
Please do keep your thoughts coming.
(Caveat I used Dunhill as my example for expensive factory pipe, but you can insert any of the expensive brands I do not just mean Dunhill.)

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Dunhills comes to mind first for all of us, because yes, the Italians have some superb factory pipes, but none rival what people spend on those Dunnies. Close, but...

And, what was a deal killer for me was going to a pipe show and seeing nearly thousands of Dunhills on a table, all exactly alike. Exactly alike. At that very moment, I couldn't fathom giving that company another dime. Something just clicked.

 

[warren]

ford: I have no idea how well a pipe might smoke until I've paid the clerk, loaded it, torched it and started to smoke it. Even then I really won't know the possibilities until I've smoke a few bowls with different cuts of tobacco. It's the only unknown I cannot answer with all of my little tests. I will admit that the possibilities of a good smoke are better with my hands on inspection of the fit and workmanship. I've only experienced a couple of bad smokers, many acceptable pipes and a couple of pipes that were indeed "golden" over the years.

 

[mso489]

I have a number of hand-mades and a greater number of factory pipes. Like most people, I have a reverence for the handmade product because I associate it with an individual craftsperson/artist who takes the care and time to make a handsome, even beautiful pipe. What I would say about factory pipes at any price level is that, when a company is managed well, and the crafts people (workers) are well trained and have high morale, the fact that they are producing the same shapes and drilling the same airways, and doing the same finishes over and over, means there is the opportunity to use this repetition to advantage and make a more predictably "perfect" product than otherwise. An artisan figures out each pipe as he or she goes, and usually does a beautiful job. But they do have to invest more thought and skill to achieve maximum quality. Whereas a factory line, if well tuned and trained, and exercising teamwork, can also reach very high levels of product quality. It is not that one is better than the other, only that there are advantages on both sides. When a factory pipe is good, it can be very good indeed.

 

[deuce26]

I know Warren. It's such an organic process weighted by so many factors and personal preferences that it boils largely down to hopefully finding a pipe with solid engineering and knowing what you like in a pipe....size, shape, weight, etc. The thrill of the hunt for that pipe that demands to be in your rotation. And, with that, the disappointing misses.

 

[cigrmaster]

I used to collect Castello's and the highest grade I owned was a Collection Fiammata KK shape 49, retail for one today is 1150.00( for what would never pass for a Fiammata in 2000). Did it smoke better than an Old Antiquari that would go for 300 or so, no it didn't. You pay for grain, on expensive factory pipes like Castello. I only own one lone Castello a Collection Occhio Di Pernice that retails for about 700.00. I bought it as an estate because I would never pay for a new one when I could buy two Ryan Alden pipes for less money that smoke better for my tastes. The only reason I bought it was I love birdseye and this one had plenty for short money. I don't smoke it that often and almost have to force myself because the stems just do nothing for me.
When I say my tastes, the Castello's smoke as cool and as dry as any artisan pipe I own, but their stems suck. They are hard plastic that have an ok button. They cannot compare to a hand cut high quality stem made from the finest German vulcanite for me.
I have owned most higher end Italian and English factory pipes. I have owned a number of high end Danish pipes. For my money people like Rad Davis, Brian Ruthenberg,Bruce Weaver, Ryan Alden and other No. American artisans make pipes that I enjoy better then any high or medium end factory pipe. I also believe that after a certain price point even No American made artisan pipes are not going to get you a better smoker. I bought an estate Jody Davis Cardinale grade pipe that retailed for 1100.00, I paid way less and it did not smoke any better than any of my other artisan pipes.If I had paid full retail, I would have been disappointed.
I have owned 2 new Dunhill Bruyeres and 2 estate Dunhills, not a one was better than my Willmers, Upshalls or Ferndowns. Yes their styling is second to none, and nothing says PIPE better than a black sandblasted Dunhill Billiard. I am still going to try a 50's or 60's Dunhill just so I can say I tried one as those are supposed to be the balls.
So Ford, the bottom line is this, if you love your Layton, then don't think you are missing out on some expensive factory pipe, as you are not.

 

[jpmcwjr]

Related to the above, if you have a spare 45 minutes or so, there's a lengthy discussion here.

Link to discussion/treatises/arguments, etc.

 

[sablebrush52]

What is the difference between a billiard curvet and a billiard straight?

It's a subtle difference in the profile of the billiard, with a slightly more curved contour to the outer walls, slightly more curve to the front and slightly more height to width.

 

[gloucesterman]

Harris, I have two '62 Dunhills, Group 3 bulldogs. Save your money, they're decent smokers but nothing to rave about. Small pipes, nice to take on a night out on the town when you might need to sneak away for a quick smoke. I got them in the estate market so the price was right. If I had paid full retail I would have been disappointed.

 

[shutterbugg]

I'm not sure which of the well-known brands are handmade and which are factory, but I have 4 Dunhills (although I paid well under $200 for each)and a melange of Ser Jacopos, Maestro De Pajas, Castellos, Radices, Comoys and a couple others. I can't really say there's any kind of trend in terms of smoking quality. For me the shape of the pipe seems to correlate more than the brand.
That said, my 2 Bings, a Mark Trinsky and a Basil Meadows, both definitely handmade and both reasonably priced, are two of the best smoking pipes I own.
That also said, all but one of the many Petersons I own smoke like crap. The one exception is a non-system. My Falcons and assortment of no-name basket pipes smoke better than the Peterson systems, which are like little cesspools.

 

[warren]

This is why I love these types of threads. I know how to smoke the "little cesspools" I guess, and thoroughly enjoy my Petes, system and non. I also enjoy my one offs and would never keep a pipe I do not enjoy smoking. They are for the fire place or rubbish can, never sold or gifted.

 

[mothernaturewilleatusallforbreakfast]

In my mind one carver paying 100% attention to my pipe is not something a factory pipe can equal.

They can and do. In fact, both individual carvers and factories alike are simultaneously making 100% high quality, well engineered, good looking, great smoking pipes everyday. I see artisan collaboration pipes becoming a more regular thing, and the pipes produced are fetching prices well above the majority of Dunhills. I imagine a guy like Clark Layton even sees value in collaboration? Obviously, guys like Todd Johnson, Pete Prevost, and Bill Shalosky do with being artisans that have replicated a factory style of production with Brair Works, Icarus, and Neptune. They're doing the same shapes over and over and are doing them very well (I wished they used vulcanite, dropped the adornments, and had more traditional classic shaping; as I would buy a couple). I threw Bill in because I think he's doing some work for Briar Works. He and Premal definitely worked on a number of Chheda pipes together, so I know he's an individual carver, as well as, a collaborator. I have a lot of respect for these guys pushing themselves in new directions, as they can all make amazing high dollar pipes on their own; but have also chosen to work together. Sometimes more than one person can create something special, and I believe that some artisans would agree. Two eyes and a brain are not always better than four or more eyes and two or more brains.