English vs. American Pipe Smoking History

[misterlowercase]

Al,

it's all very confusing to me, I'm horrible at math!
But according to this converter,

in 1950, £0 17s 6d would have the same spending worth of 2005's £19.93

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/currency/default0.asp#mid
A bit more background info:
Before decimalization on 15 February 1971, there were twenty (20) shillings per pound.
The shilling was subdivided into twelve (12) pennies.
The penny was further sub-divided into two halfpennies or four farthings (quarter pennies).
2 farthings = 1 halfpenny

2 halfpence = 1 penny (1d)

3 pence = 1 thruppence (3d)

6 pence = 1 sixpence (a 'tanner') (6d)

12 pence = 1 shilling (a bob) (1s)

2 shillings = 1 florin ( a 'two bob bit') (2s)

2 shillings and 6 pence = 1 half crown (2s 6d)

5 shillings = 1 Crown (5s)
The pre-decimalisation British system of coinage was introduced by King Henry II. It was based on the troy system of weighing precious metals. The penny was literally one pennyweight of silver. A pound sterling thus weighed 240 pennyweights, or a pound of sterling silver.
...and I was curious why so many of the prices eneded with sixes, -/6

I reckon it was that 'tanner'

 

[judcole]

Great thread. It's fun to read about this. ::

 

[snagstangl]

No wonder they went to decimialization! They must have been fraction geniuses before that. I know very little about the United Kingdoms monetary systemt other than they use "quid" as slang for a pound, like we use buck as slang for a dollar. Quid is shortened from Quid Pro Quo or something for something in latin.

 

[jguss]

Hi mrlowercase!
I actually have a small file on Portland Pipe, but can't lay my hands on it at the moment. Here are a few comments, however, in reply to your questions:

Did Barling own Portland from the start as a subsidiary, or was Portland bought out at some point by Barling?

I don't know for sure how far back the Barling/Portland Pipe relationship went, but do know that Barling off-loaded inferior (by their standards) bowls to the Portland Pipe Co. at least as far back as 1928.

Does that mean that the famous Barling briar may exist in the form of earlier Portland pipes?

It's possible, but whether any given Portland Pipe pipe contained reject Barling briar would depend at least in part on its age, and on whether Portland Pipe was a subsidiary at the time it was made. It would also depend on evolutions in Barling's policies for disposing of its inferior wood.

I've found a couple of different addies for Portland, the earliest being 30 Great Portland Street W.1.,

and then 7 & 8 Jeffreys Place, London

The 30 Great Portland St address appears at least from 1930-1939; the Jeffreys address of course belongs to Barlings. One guess could be that the disappearance of the Great Portland St address after the November 1939 London directory is a sign that with the start of the war (and consequent reduction of output at all English pipe companies) Barling retrenched and eliminated a duplicate facility.

 

[ssjones]

But according to this converter,

in 1950, £0 17s 6d would have the same spending worth of 2005's £19.93

Wow, that is $32 US dollars in 2013. So Britain had no equivalent of a $2 drugstore pipe? There had to be something cheaper for the everyman smoker?

 

[condorlover1]

This thread has made my day! I remember when I was growing up that most towns had Tobacco stores. They were usually left overs from the Victorian era with colored glass windows and gas lamps inside. One I remember had Mr. Punch holding a flaming torch so that you could light your pipe or cigar. The window displays were very elaborate and once inside they contained an array of glass cabinets with hundreds of pipes. On the counter was a wooden box full of sawdust that usually contained clay pipes - I do not remember the prices but I do remember the wooden box was stamped 'Pollock's of Manchester' which always reminded of another phrase ascribed to that towns football team! In terms of cheap pipes sold by 'Drug Stores' the ones I remember were sold by 'News Agents' and included a nasty briar that held some kind of pipe filter and a nasty aluminum band between the stem and the bowl. I have one somewhere that came from a friends father although I have never smoked it. Cheaper pipes were called rejects and were normally found on the tobacconists counter in a large baskets. They were briars with faults in the grain or small pits. The really cruddy pipes were the 'Super Seconds' which had some much filler in them they were usually stained black. I remember a friend smoking one circa 1986 in a pub off Sloan Square when we were treated to this loud pop as a huge piece of filler shot off the side of his pipe. The rejects were from some very well known pipe makers with their names obscured by stamping with a small star emblem and these were around 3 Pounds each and the 'Super Seconds' went for about 1 Pound each not including life insurance. In Carnaby Street there was a pipe shop now long gone called Inderwick's which had been around since the 1790's and I still have a couple of the house reject briars which thirty years on are still going strong.

 

[misterlowercase]

Al,

I dunno if we can take that conversion seriously, who knows what parameters it uses to equate from 1950 to 2005? I reckon they set in some kind of inflationary or cost-of-living stuff, but if we look back at that '55 RTDA Retailers' Almanac we see some of the 2nds going for that kind of money:

Astor $2.50

Moorgate $1.95

Dr. Plumb $1.50

Digby $3.50

Auld Erin $2.95

Old England $2.50

---------------------and I'd reckon they'd be priced about the same over in the UK at that time?
And a Dunhill Shell was going for $15.00!

What was $15 worth in 1955 USA?
I've seen a few of these charts/tables, but I don't know how reliable they are?

Stuff like this:

Milk: $.92

Gas: $.23

Bread $.18

Postage stamp: $.03

Sirloin chops: $ .69 lb.

Pot Roast: $.43 lb.

Eggs, doz.: $.61

Coffee: $.93 lb.

Milk, ½ gal. $.43

Potatoes, 10 lb. bag: $.53

Starkist Tuna, 6 ½ oz. can: $.25

Oreo cookies, 11¾ .oz pkg: $.39

Ivory Soap, 2 bars: $.29

Mickey Mouse lunchbox: $.88

Slinky: $.88

Baseball Glove: $9.95

Black and White tv: $99.00

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jguss,

thank you for taking the time with such a great comments!

I don't know for sure how far back the Barling/Portland Pipe relationship went, but do know that Barling off-loaded inferior (by their standards) bowls to the Portland Pipe Co. at least as far back as 1928.

Very interesting is that 1928 date, after reading about the Merchandise Marks Act in one of your publications (thank you for pointing that interesting historical event out btw), it strikes to me as a clue, because that "Made Wholly In England" stamp of Portland is rather unusual.
In fact, I've been after one of the earlier examples soley because I love that phraseology!
I'm slightly hesitant to talk up Portland though, as the early ones are already quite scarce and sometimes internet info overload can drive things into the "rare & priceless" category LOL
But, full face to the wind, here's an example of what I'd love to find, the rather big fill/flaw on bottom would have put it in the Barling-proper "reject" pile I reckon?

It sold at auction for $15, sadly I didn't see it until after the fact!

Here's a Portland Londoner 306

The later BB&S pipes dropped the "Portland" altogether, but kept the John Peel moniker,

http://www.smokingpipes.com/pipes/estate/england/moreinfo.cfm?product_id=77613
Stamping detail of another:

And here's a BB&S Portland which sold for $70, totally due to provenance alone I reckon.

http://www.gunauction.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=10561355

Another obvious McIntosh favorite. The cake build-up in the bowl is so thick, without a good reaming, it would be near impossible to pack any tobacco into the bowl.
I had no idea who Michael McIntosh was, I know nothing about guns, but he was famous for writing about them, especially American made, with books like The Best Shotguns Ever Made in America

He was an Elizabethan scholar and had taught Shakespeare at a college, although he certainly retained a deep interest in literature, and an even deeper one in history, his great love was shotguns and he wrote about them almost exclusively. And, to be blunt, no one in the latter part of the 20th century wrote about them so eloquently and with such passion.
He once wrote, memorably, that “God the Father shoots a Purdey hammer gun.”

Back on topic,

...the Jeffreys address of course belongs to Barlings.

This fact slipped my mind, maybe it was never even in my mind LOL

But I went back to consult one of your publications

http://www.apassionforpipes.com/vintage-project-publications/

that I had printed out in small book form, and sure enough there's a pic on p11 of the manager of the Jeffereys factory at the pattern cupboard! Now I gotta reread it with this particular addy and Portland more on my mind, how many angels indeed!
This 1962 London Gazette page shows Portland at the classic Camden Town addy, would this have anything to do with the Finlay's or Imperial transactions I wonder?

What does it mean, really, when a co. is liquidated?

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/42668/pages/3721/page.pdf
This is all very intriguing stuff!

 

[misterlowercase]

condorlover1
Ah!!!!
Thank you so much for the informative post!
Great bit of writing there!

Many thanks for the input!

:

:
This event must have been a stunner!

The really cruddy pipes were the 'Super Seconds' which had some much filler in them they were usually stained black. I remember a friend smoking one circa 1986 in a pub off Sloan Square when we were treated to this loud pop as a huge piece of filler shot off the side of his pipe.

Both hilarious and scary!

:lol: 8O

 

[ssjones]

Astor $2.50

Moorgate $1.95

Dr. Plumb $1.50

Digby $3.50

Auld Erin $2.95

Old England $2.50

Thanks, I assume Digby's and the like might even be a little cheaper in their home country.

 

[snagstangl]

So it looks like low quality pipes were to be had on both side of the ocean but just from experiance, higher quality pipes were made in england while america kind of topped out on the low end of things with that.

 

[snagstangl]

From this website translated with google. It is talking about the first part of the 1900's in reference to pricing BBB brand pipes.
"At the time, the practice was that the price range is based on the pipe material: vulcanite, horn, amber, ambrolith ... Similarly, the price of the same also varied so that the size of the pipe. For example, in 1914, the wholesale price of a simple billiard should vary between 15 shillings and 22 shillings and 6 pence because of the size of the pipe and the floc (screw or pin). Anyway, it seems strange that Liverpool five inches long with a pipe amber coutait 12s in large quantities while even with a pipe ambrolith cost it 19 shillings. "

 

[misterlowercase]

Here's a codger reverse calabash,

well almost!

:wink:

 

[foggymountain]

1950s to 2013? Despite what the government says, things cost about 1/15 what they do now. Some mid 50s prices: Dunhill $22, Charatan from $20, high grade Pete, $18. Also, NYC subway 15 cents,full size Ford or Chevy V8 $2500.

 

[snagstangl]

http://www.pipes2smoke.com/British_pipes_article.htm
I have no association to the above website but this article seems to shed some light on the emergence of pipes in british culture.

 

[misterlowercase]

So this phrase is about pipes? "Postcolonial theory thrusts an epistemological redefinition of enlightenment universalism"

That phrase was clipped from a comment addressing pipeherman's point about how the British Empire is generally derided nowadays, especially in academic circles.
I find it ironic that you link to an article where Maxim Engel says this:

Colonialism has been denigrated as a terrible thing, particularly by the PC crowd. These, well tailored Englishman, who dressed for dinner in remote and dangerous places they governed all over the world, learnt the language of the locals, trained local administrators, balanced the budget, generated fiscal revenue, they had to because the British government wasn’t going to finance them. If they failed to govern fairly the population would revolt. And when they left most of these former British colonies, India, South Africa, Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc. continued to develop, and did not completely collapse into chaos as most of the French, Italian and German former colonies did. It is because of them that English is the worlds’ language today and India is the world largest democracy and English speaking country. Not a bad legacy for a group of tweed wearing, whisky drinking, pipe smokers.

The expansion/retraction of the British Empire is relevant to our whole discussion exactly because of the cultural impact, particularly in the exchange of transnational goods and local tastes.
It's part of the big picture in the overall arc of history.

 

[ravkesef]

Marvelous thread! Wish I had my dollars of today and could travel back in time to pick up some of those "drugstore" pipes. They weren't all that bad when you think about it. Now in early 1961, when I was still relatively new to pipe smoking, I discovered Fred Diebel's shop in Kansas City. He sold GBD's starting at $15. They were way beyond my reach as a young undergraduate. In April 1961, my girlfriend bought me a pipe for my birthday – it was a City De Luxe, a GBD second, and it set her back $10, quite a chunk of money for young students back in those days. By the way, I should mention that it was a mighty fine smoker. Amazing what 10 bucks will get you.
I got my first Dunhill, a group 2 shell Briar at the duty-free shop at the airport in London in 1971. It set me back $35. More than 40 years have elapsed, and it smokes better than ever!

 

[kashmir]

Excellent thread Mr.LC. Outstanding contributions from one and all. I suppose the British equivalent of the drug store pipe were the numerous seconds, thirds, etc. already mentioned. After all, Comoys had the Everyman pipe, and a range of seconds, as well as a range of pipes not stamped Comoys made for individual tobacconists and other mercantile stores, sometimes identified as a Comoy by the shape number stamp or the various Made in England or London logos. Great thread!

 

[snagstangl]

I guess I should have read all the article. I'm afraid this might be getting over my head as far as the factors are concerned, but that has never stopped me before and this is all in good fun so I will post on.

 

[misterlowercase]

Stang,

it's all cool man, I was being a bit of a pedantic curmudgeon there.
That whole Colonial topic is pretty much over everybodies head anyway, that's why they keep arguing endlessly about it.
I went a bit overboard in my reply, and rambled a bit too far offtopic - you were right to call me out, and that's why I edited it so quickly, because I agreed with you about it being over-the-top.
Another contested debate would be the etymology of the word codger LOL there's alotta differing explanations out there as to exactly where this term cam from.
The best I've found is this:

As for “codger,” meaning an old man, often with overtones of eccentricity, it may well be derived from “cadge,” but by a path which has no connection to falconry. The earliest use of the noun “cadger” in the 15th century was for itinerant dealers who “cadged” (carried) their wares from town to town. Later the term was applied to beggars and tramps (leading to our modern use of the verb “to cadge” to mean “to beg”). “Codger” is probably simply a dialect variation of “cadger,” and originally, in the 18th century, meant a stingy, miserly old man. The word has, of course, been softened over the years, and today “codger” is a fairly affectionate word for an older man.

Neill Archer Roan has written about a "codger" he met on a park bench,

"...he took his pipe from his mouth, glanced down at it, flicked an ember from a rim with more tar on it than the asphalted path we sat beside, then stuck it back in his mouth, puffed a couple of times..."

http://www.apassionforpipes.com/neills-blog/2012/12/30/lessons-from-a-park-bench.html
And it is somewhat true to the term that we associate it with surly oldtimers who usually smoke their one brand of baccy and allow their bowls to cake heavily.
Often a "codger" pipe will look like this old Fribourg & Treyer Reject,

although it's not as super-caked as some I've seen...

...and it would've been a cheaper pipe when new, perhaps dug out of the reject basket at the F&T shop!
Sometimes the Reject pipes didn't say anything but that, and London England maybe,

but often there are examples of known-makers where Reject is stamped along with the regular stamps,

or marked over the original factory nomenclature like that eBay Hardcastle...

...what about that TOPGRADE REJECT, eh?

LOL

It is a Finlay's pipe, but maybe one of the famous-makers made it?
In the case of this GBD, the Reject stamp isn't so badly damning,

http://www.smokingpipes.com/pipes/estate/england/moreinfo.cfm?product_id=50165
And sometimes these Reject pipes become collectible in and of themselves to collectors looking for a bargain, but extra competition means that they ain't all a bargain,

like this Hardcastle Reject that sold for $84!

Smoking Pipe Rare Large Dunhill Hardcastle Rustic Reject Estate Pipe VGC
So, outside of all the proper factory 2nds with all the different names, which ranged the whole gamut as far as pricing was concerned, we have these reject pipes that were probably the cheapest of the lot.
This is all a great topic and I'm glad you brought it up!

 

[ssjones]

That's a reject I'd love to have!