Earth Hour

[toobfreak]

Train wreck! TRAIN WRECK!

:rofl: Warren you're a howl!

I do not need a flame war or argument.

I did not know that anyone was starting a flame war. I thought it was becoming a good debate. And argument is just a difference of opinion. Pretty boring here if all opinion is the same, right?

Science, especially environmental, meteorological and energy science has been so politicized

Then you seem to be agreeing with several others of us!

The issues are real, the data is real, the arguments are ridiculous.

Was anyone saying that overpopulation, crime, hunger, etc., aren't real? As to data, no data has been proffered to agree or disagree with. Data is usually real but these days is often also politically manipulated to one's end as well to a desired outcome. As to "the arguments" being ridiculous, again, you do not say WHICH arguments are ridiculous, so at once it sounds like you are simply closing your mind to all views but your own while simultaneously self-justifying. I hope whatever arguments to which you refer ARE indeed ridiculous!
As to you and your colleagues "stepping lightly with limited resources," again, impossible to comment as you provide too little information on what it is you step lightly around, and much of what you say seems to contradict other things. So I'm totally confused--- I am certainly not an extremist, and you seem to be taking the side opposite of the extremists, all the while sounding like you intend to be one? I'm sure I am wrong.
At any rate, without more to go on, it is impossible to comment other than to say that I love the Earth and propose an 'Earth Month' where for 30 days, our governments have to live like the rest of us, within their budgets, without private jets, body guards, personal chefs, vacations in far away places, multi-week vacations, and must eat McDonalds fast food, take public transportation and meet all deadlines, budgets and payrolls like the rest of us or get fired with no lifetime benefits! I for one would think that alone would do the Earth a world a good. ::

 

[tuold]

As I sit in the dark I'll remember to be thankful for all the things electricity has done for mankind. Sorry, I'm just not into symbolic planet worship, I guess. It's a sign of our continuing tribal mentality. Enjoy it if you are so inclined.

 

[aquadoc]

I guess my point which I failed miserably at making was that, I and my fellow scientists are skittish (to put it mildly) of engaging in debate. It almost always turns nasty. I was not implying that this was going that direction but that I did not want to go there on the off chance it did. My Facebook languishes dead because of the detritus of friends lost when I dared speak up with facts. I have found a refuge here. I like it here. I am not saying that anyone here is not reasonable in this thread or any other. I just do not want to go there. My apologies. The problem lies within me and my reticence to engage in what should be friendly and informed debate with the best man making his point without anger. Sadly, it rarely goes like that these days.

 

[toobfreak]

If it helps aquadoc, I've been a scientist all my life and run two professional science forums on Yahoo. We argue differing views all the time but it does not change our friendship. We are friends first and our differences of view are secondary. We benefit from each others differing opinions and value what the other person has to say. It is never mutually exclusive that if I am right, then you must be wrong! (modus ponens, eh?).
I hate Facebook and never use that stuff. Sounds to me like these people were never your friends to begin with. But in real life you must argue your position if you truly believe the data is valid to win grants and advance your causes.
Sounds to me like you are into some great stuff and I hope you never let anything stop that. Not opposing views, not limited resources, not governmental opacity nor lack of time. Too few people in this world are willing enough as it is to dedicate themselves to noble causes of an altruistic nature! And the world certainly could use it. I'd love to hear more of your efforts if you are willing to share them! Me or others might not totally agree with everything you say, or maybe we will, but you never know--- we might learn something from the discussion--- or maybe you. Meantime, either way, we are still brothers of the pipe. ::

 

[warren]

In real life it is often times best to understand when it is pointless to argue others. Especially when opinions are not going to be changed under any circumstances. Arguing at that point is not debate. Most of what is referred to as debate on the internet is simply two or more individuals stating opinions (facts as they believe them), over and over, ad nauseam.
Doc seems to fully understand the futility of battling for minds on the internet. I applaud that.

 

[cranseiron]

Indeed, Warren.

 

[mcitinner1]

I also agree with Warren.

 

[jackswilling]

Pushing either way will get push back.

That is futile.

So I too agree

 

[toobfreak]

In real life it is often times best to understand when it is pointless to argue others.

That implies a clairvoyance towards the future. A further clairvoyance to assume no minds will be changed on a matter where neither the minds nor the issues are yet known. In science, real science, half of your job is convincing others of your theories. The other half is admitting you were wrong once you have tested the data, accepting the data, even when it takes you elsewhere than where you wanted or expected to go.
Scientists are finding out they were wrong all of the time. They are wrong more often than right. Any situation where your fellow scientists steadfastly refuse to agree with you, either:
The data is bad but you've blinded yourself to its flaws,
The data is good but your reading of it is bad,
You are dealing with some pretty poor scientists.

 

[jackswilling]

"Scientists are finding out they were wrong all of the time. They are wrong more often than right. Any situation where your fellow scientists steadfastly refuse to agree with you, either:
The data is bad but you've blinded yourself to its flaws,
The data is good but your reading of it is bad,
You are dealing with some pretty poor scientists."
^^^

That is most excellent. I get frustrated with agenda science. Follow the grant $$$ and reverse engineer the conclusion to get more grant $$$.

 

[warren]

Most "data" is wide open to various interpretations. Enough said!

 

[ashdigger]

Warren is correct. Just because you have data doesn't mean you have the truth. Connections have to be made by fallible humans.

 

[warren]

Clairvoyance, my tushie! One read of certain posts is sufficient to understand when a thread is going south. Even with my limited education I can tell pedantry when reading.
In "real" science one usually presents theories to peers who are open to digesting the material, dissecting it, and, having more or less equal understanding of the problems, offer opinions, debate and then settle on their own, sometimes differing beliefs. Consensus in, science, is often times hard to achieve. Consensus on a public forum is more or less never achievable.

 

[toobfreak]

What I was talking about Jack is real science, like discovering that Pluto is really part of the Kuiper Belt, so despite a preponderance of sentimentality towards the "9th planet," they completely restructured the solar system so that Pluto could now join a new proper classification of Plutinos or Dwarf Planets. Kuiper Belt Objects. There are thousands of them.
Agenda Science as you call it is a much bigger problem. Several years ago it was discovered (by computer hack) that a large group of "scientists" in the EU had been working together to skew data to make it come out in favor of global warming. In other words, they suppressed data that did not support the outcome they wanted. And that is just plain wrong. Such people should lose their jobs. It happens more and more these days.
There's good money to be had in Climate Change! Job security. Mainly influence and control of other people's lives!
Now, I'm not saying that there isn't cases of global warming. What is at question is whether it is man made. Keep in mind that man has only had significant industrial activity for about a hundred years. Weigh that against the impact of volcanoes and super-volcanoes (and other things)! Which the Earth routinely cycles through and absorbs, rebounding right back to where it started.
Long before the present climate (ahem) of agenda science, when we were kids, they used to cry that we were heading towards the next ice age! Whatever happened to that theory? I was going to post one of a number of data charts I have debunking global warming or supporting a coming ice age, but the interpretation of them is always subject to, well, interpretation. Some people see the glass half full, some see it as half empty. Bottom line: no one really knows the future. We shall see. Meantime, really silly to destroy whole economies and people's lives for something no one really knows is real.
Now, getting back to the topic, and with no disrespect meant at all to the OP or anyone here, but the whole idea of an 'Earth Hour' is so pointless IMO, it is akin to half the people on this forum saying that we are going to stop smoking our pipes for one hour to raise awareness for better air quality.

 

[toobfreak]

Consensus on a public forum is more or less never achievable.

Warren, that is probably the most undeniable and profoundly true statement in the history of mankind.
And with that, I'm going to sign off and go smoke a pipe.
G,night, gentlemen.

 

[deathmetal]

With some lengthy experience on forums, and running them, it seems to me that debate does little but discussion does wonders. People are looking for information, and for every participant, there are dozens or hundreds of readers.
I wanted to throw in this link on smart meters:
https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/17/03/12/2256215/millions-of-smart-meters-may-over-inflate-readings-by-up-to-600
Some good discussion in there.

 

[johnnyreb]

I wonder if there is a corresponding baby boom 9 months after Earth Hour? Wouldn't that be sort of counterproductive to the principals of Earth Hour to begin with?

 

[indianafrank]

I'm still waiting for the ice age we were promised in the 60's.

 

[jackswilling]

Me too

 

[deathmetal]

Could be what the South Texas real estate market needs...