Earth Hour
- Thread starter winton
- Start date
PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor
Site Sponsors
PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor
PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor
PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor
PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor
- Status
Damn, I missed this one. Apparently I napped through it last night. So, in a way it was "lights out" for me. Glad I did my bit for the world.
That's the term used when they start cramming shit in your face, a nice way of forcing you to conform and feel good about it, Im all for a good epidemic.
I'm waiting for the implementation of a carbon tax here so I can celebrate with a tire fire :rofl:
Brian64, I can assure you, it is lack in most 3rd world areas I have worked. My job was to come up with solutions for water issues that varied from sanitation to source issues. Some areas have water but no way to clean it for various reasons, usually infrastructure and power issues. Some or most do not have it because of changing weather patterns. Nomadic people can no longer move freely across artificial political country lines. So yeah, there are areas of the world where management and manipulation is an issue but that is not the majority.
There is not a single resource that's unlimited. But turning off lights for an hour won't help educate those who aren't.
Awarenesses is never a bad thing. One can apply that to any situation-- political, religious, driving a car, health, sports situational awareness, battlefield situational awareness, etc. Engage in any of the aforementioned without awareness and it will affect you negatively. The more aware one is the more knowledgeable one is. National Geographic ran a multi-issue feature on food and food production and what does the world do as our population heads to nine billion in 50 years. Many say we will need a second agricultural revolution and one not based on petrochemicals. Awareness leads to preparedness and to politicize the word only does us injustice. Starting somewhere, even with a lame earth hour, should be seen as a first step, not a solution.
Awareness is great. At some point, though, someone has to put on their lab coat and goggles and do the heavy lifting. After a while, making people aware of the problem (along with about ten million other people "spreading awareness") without actively pursuing a solution becomes simple whining, lazily expecting someone to come along and solve it. The American Revolution didn't need thousands of Paul Reveres; it needed thousands of infantrymen.
aquadoc, I'm sorry you don't see the staggering contradiction in some of the things you say. On the one hand you ask
why does it push buttons that there is a segment of folks trying to help make things better for everyone? It doesn't push any buttons because most people are aware and most people will try to do something if they feel it is reasonable and will really makes a difference. But most important, that the contributions are being made fairly by all.
It makes no sense to turn off your TV early and sit in the dark while all others around you are up late partying. It makes no sense for the USA to impose "carbon credits" while China and other countries spew out waste and filth like there is no tomorrow.
The first problem is that it isn't so much awareness as it is /caring/ for a lot of people because they know that what little they can do /won't/ make any real difference in the bigger picture. There have been people who have written books and made movies about climate change, then go around flying in big jets and owning huge homes all around the word with massive energy consumption. What the average individual can do pales in contrast to the hypocrisy of many of the uber-rich and big governments.
You say that in the USA, overpopulation is not the problem but in 3rd world countries it is. Overpopulation is always at the heart of it no matter where because there is always a direct correlation between resource consumption and resource assets! For the most part, resources are rather fixed, and resource access is determined largely by infrastructure.
Infrastructure is driven by economy. It costs money to build it and most of that money comes from taxes through productivity. You make it sound like someone is withholding resources--- you talk about vulgar overuse and waste of resources. Give me an example? You sound like it is a matter of the "haves" and the "have nots!" Western countries use more resources because they both have them available as well as create the economic base for themselves in order to provide and enjoy it!
You talk about Chad, Ethiopia and Sudan--- what do any of these regions produce? What products do they generate to create wealth and a tax base? I can't remember the last time I bought anything made there. Is it tourism? Where do they generate the tax base to create the infrastructure?
Then it is a matter of having the resources in the first place. Resources in these regions are extremely limited. There is no economy to finance the infrastructure to provide it. Governments cannot just pull it out of their ass and create it as their finances mostly come from the people, so bottom line, it still comes back to overpopulation.
The USA has a lot more economic power to support its infrastructure but it is stretched to the breaking point because half the people in the country pay little or no taxes. Sudan and Chad have no economic power to support very little infrastructure, so again, it is a matter of there being more people in the region than the resource infrastructure can provided for. Overpopulation.
What constitutes overpopulation varies with the regional resource infrastructure. Please do not try to make this a problem of western civilization--- women are being dragged off into the woods in Sudan because of poverty and crime. Lack of wealth invites corruption and suffering. Population growth in all regions of the world have outstripped the resources to keep up with it. Poor nations in Africa are particularly vulnerable because they have little economy in the first place to deal with it.
Solution: somehow give all these poor regions the economic machinery to generate wealth, taxes and a better way of life? Wrong again, because now, people would just start having even more kids! It always comes back to population, because without people, there is no resource consumption. Earth Day is a great idea, but it only mainly creates awareness in those least in need of needing it. Everything we do today depends on energy and electricity. You can't ask people to go back to the 1800's. The problem is the number of people drawing from the available resources.
Until people stop fighting between themselves, between parties, between nations and identify common goals, not much will change. Efforts are being made to meet demand but these processes work slowly. There are social programs to help the poor, but these programs do not help them get out of poverty, but to merely /exist/ poor! When you finance something, you get more of it, so in helping the poor live poor rather than get out of poverty, you just get more poor people needing more programs! That is the problem. Anytime you have more people taking from the system than contributing, you have a problem.
The one thing that people can do that will make the biggest difference is population control, get populations back in line with regional assets supported by viable economic productivity. It is going to get worse before it ever gets better because in order to meet that, ideally, we need to cut population in most regions by a third, in some places maybe half, either that, or get a lot of these people to be a lot more /productive./
why does it push buttons that there is a segment of folks trying to help make things better for everyone? It doesn't push any buttons because most people are aware and most people will try to do something if they feel it is reasonable and will really makes a difference. But most important, that the contributions are being made fairly by all.
It makes no sense to turn off your TV early and sit in the dark while all others around you are up late partying. It makes no sense for the USA to impose "carbon credits" while China and other countries spew out waste and filth like there is no tomorrow.
The first problem is that it isn't so much awareness as it is /caring/ for a lot of people because they know that what little they can do /won't/ make any real difference in the bigger picture. There have been people who have written books and made movies about climate change, then go around flying in big jets and owning huge homes all around the word with massive energy consumption. What the average individual can do pales in contrast to the hypocrisy of many of the uber-rich and big governments.
You say that in the USA, overpopulation is not the problem but in 3rd world countries it is. Overpopulation is always at the heart of it no matter where because there is always a direct correlation between resource consumption and resource assets! For the most part, resources are rather fixed, and resource access is determined largely by infrastructure.
Infrastructure is driven by economy. It costs money to build it and most of that money comes from taxes through productivity. You make it sound like someone is withholding resources--- you talk about vulgar overuse and waste of resources. Give me an example? You sound like it is a matter of the "haves" and the "have nots!" Western countries use more resources because they both have them available as well as create the economic base for themselves in order to provide and enjoy it!
You talk about Chad, Ethiopia and Sudan--- what do any of these regions produce? What products do they generate to create wealth and a tax base? I can't remember the last time I bought anything made there. Is it tourism? Where do they generate the tax base to create the infrastructure?
Then it is a matter of having the resources in the first place. Resources in these regions are extremely limited. There is no economy to finance the infrastructure to provide it. Governments cannot just pull it out of their ass and create it as their finances mostly come from the people, so bottom line, it still comes back to overpopulation.
The USA has a lot more economic power to support its infrastructure but it is stretched to the breaking point because half the people in the country pay little or no taxes. Sudan and Chad have no economic power to support very little infrastructure, so again, it is a matter of there being more people in the region than the resource infrastructure can provided for. Overpopulation.
What constitutes overpopulation varies with the regional resource infrastructure. Please do not try to make this a problem of western civilization--- women are being dragged off into the woods in Sudan because of poverty and crime. Lack of wealth invites corruption and suffering. Population growth in all regions of the world have outstripped the resources to keep up with it. Poor nations in Africa are particularly vulnerable because they have little economy in the first place to deal with it.
Solution: somehow give all these poor regions the economic machinery to generate wealth, taxes and a better way of life? Wrong again, because now, people would just start having even more kids! It always comes back to population, because without people, there is no resource consumption. Earth Day is a great idea, but it only mainly creates awareness in those least in need of needing it. Everything we do today depends on energy and electricity. You can't ask people to go back to the 1800's. The problem is the number of people drawing from the available resources.
Until people stop fighting between themselves, between parties, between nations and identify common goals, not much will change. Efforts are being made to meet demand but these processes work slowly. There are social programs to help the poor, but these programs do not help them get out of poverty, but to merely /exist/ poor! When you finance something, you get more of it, so in helping the poor live poor rather than get out of poverty, you just get more poor people needing more programs! That is the problem. Anytime you have more people taking from the system than contributing, you have a problem.
The one thing that people can do that will make the biggest difference is population control, get populations back in line with regional assets supported by viable economic productivity. It is going to get worse before it ever gets better because in order to meet that, ideally, we need to cut population in most regions by a third, in some places maybe half, either that, or get a lot of these people to be a lot more /productive./
Awareness is great. At some point, though, someone has to put on their lab coat and goggles and do the heavy lifting. After a while, making people aware of the problem (along with about ten million other people "spreading awareness") without actively pursuing a solution becomes simple whining, lazily expecting someone to come along and solve it. The American Revolution didn't need thousands of Paul Reveres; it needed thousands of infantrymen.
Aldecaker, I agree. Although, if you don't have an informed population many ideas will get no political traction. Science has produced many ideas/solutions in many areas, but an uninformed/unaware constituency will not bring pressure on elected leaders to act. Science is already doing the heavy lifting-- it's our job to listen objectively. As an aside, in the case of our revolution if it hadn't been for one rich guy loaning Washington money to move troops to Yorktown they never would have arrived allowing Cornwallis freedom of movement. The individual polititions under the Articles of Confederation couldn't even decide among themselves to appropriate money to move troops.
Solution: somehow give all these poor regions the economic machinery to generate wealth, taxes and a better way of life? Wrong again, because now, people would just start having even more kids.
Toob, in all cases more affluent and educated societies experience lower birthrates. The problem then becomes they consume more as they have more expendable cash.
Aldecaker, I agree. Although, if you don't have an informed population many ideas will get no political traction. Science has produced many ideas/solutions in many areas, but an uninformed/unaware constituency will not bring pressure on elected leaders to act. Science is already doing the heavy lifting-- it's our job to listen objectively. As an aside, in the case of our revolution if it hadn't been for one rich guy loaning Washington money to move troops to Yorktown they never would have arrived allowing Cornwallis freedom of movement. The individual polititions under the Articles of Confederation couldn't even decide among themselves to appropriate money to move troops.
Solution: somehow give all these poor regions the economic machinery to generate wealth, taxes and a better way of life? Wrong again, because now, people would just start having even more kids.
Toob, in all cases more affluent and educated societies experience lower birthrates. The problem then becomes they consume more as they have more expendable cash.
Telling private residences to turn off the power for one hour does jack. How many stores keep all the lights on after close? How many corporations polluted/continue to pollute our water/air/soil on levels citizens could never touch? I've spilled a little oil before working on the car, not nearly enough to cause any dead zones in the ocean or anything. That's the crap that pushes buttons, real problems exist/flourish while we tell individual people how to spend their free time or that they need to tighten their belts yet no solutions to the real crap the needs addressed are offered. It's a suggestion that leaves you with the alternative of being considered a dick by people who possibly don't see it as nothing but a feel good distraction. So glad to be self employed with no tv, haven't a clue about crap like this. Chaining yourself to a Redwood wasn't on the list of suggestions?
Have you ever seen a big commercial dump truck or jet airplane with emission controls? The seamier side of all of this are things like Agenda 21, presented as a way to bring pollution and waste all under better management--- who could be against that?
The problem is that when you look into it closer, you find that Agenda 21 gives the international community the right to come in and tell you how to live. From it comes the "Smartmeter." What is a smartmeter? An electric smartmeter develops a database of how you use electricity. They want to create smart-appliances and all of this will talk together to report on you. There is a good chance you already have one.
From the data (which can be hacked), it can be told when you are home, how you live, what you do, when you go on vacation, when you sleep, your medical conditions, to charge you more money for unit power when you need it the most, cut back on your available electricity or even shut it off.
All without even stepping onto your property. All even if you've never missed paying one bill.
I took legal action a few years ago baring the utility from installing an electric smartmeter here. A few years ago, I allowed a gas smartmeter installed, but only after a big fight that forced them to install an old model that only collected data on my monthly amount due, not my day to day consumption.
This all comes under the heading of invasion of privacy and unreasonable searches, what your 4th Amendment protects you from. I know this is silly to a lot of people, but I happen to take the stuff seriously.
The problem is that when you look into it closer, you find that Agenda 21 gives the international community the right to come in and tell you how to live. From it comes the "Smartmeter." What is a smartmeter? An electric smartmeter develops a database of how you use electricity. They want to create smart-appliances and all of this will talk together to report on you. There is a good chance you already have one.
From the data (which can be hacked), it can be told when you are home, how you live, what you do, when you go on vacation, when you sleep, your medical conditions, to charge you more money for unit power when you need it the most, cut back on your available electricity or even shut it off.
All without even stepping onto your property. All even if you've never missed paying one bill.
I took legal action a few years ago baring the utility from installing an electric smartmeter here. A few years ago, I allowed a gas smartmeter installed, but only after a big fight that forced them to install an old model that only collected data on my monthly amount due, not my day to day consumption.
This all comes under the heading of invasion of privacy and unreasonable searches, what your 4th Amendment protects you from. I know this is silly to a lot of people, but I happen to take the stuff seriously.
@toob: You're 100% correct regarding "Agenda 21" but the vast majority of people are just never going to perceive the greater agenda that "21" is a part of.
At the core of the big picture problem is that science has been politicized. If we had free and honest science, we would have moved far beyond our current technologies and had nearly free energy by now, imo. In a nutshell, we have been kept in a closed system. Closed system physics functions with closed system economics. Open system physics/economics is the solution, but the agenda has long been to suppress it.
For those with a sufficiently open mind, I recommend the following book to get a basic overarching historical view of these issues:
Babylon's Banksters: The Alchemy of Deep Physics, High Finance and Ancient Religion
https://www.amazon.com/Babylons-Banksters-Alchemy-Physics-Religion/dp/1932595791/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1490552645&sr=1-1&keywords=babylon%27s+banksters
At the core of the big picture problem is that science has been politicized. If we had free and honest science, we would have moved far beyond our current technologies and had nearly free energy by now, imo. In a nutshell, we have been kept in a closed system. Closed system physics functions with closed system economics. Open system physics/economics is the solution, but the agenda has long been to suppress it.
For those with a sufficiently open mind, I recommend the following book to get a basic overarching historical view of these issues:
Babylon's Banksters: The Alchemy of Deep Physics, High Finance and Ancient Religion
https://www.amazon.com/Babylons-Banksters-Alchemy-Physics-Religion/dp/1932595791/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1490552645&sr=1-1&keywords=babylon%27s+banksters
Toob, I am all to aware at the holes in any and all of what I say but it is with care that I step around landmines. I do not need a flame war or argument. I could start one just by stating facts but what is the point. Science, especially environmental, meteorological and energy science has been so politicized and attacked that I usually dare not venture to say anything. The issues are real, the data is real, the arguments are ridiculous... And I am tired as are so many of my colleagues. So we step lightly and do what we can with limited resources and even more limited support. The extremist do us no good... They simply play into the hands of those that would control the emotions of the masses. I know of what you speak. It is too damn depressing to debate in a forum where I would like to remain friends with everyone, if possible.
- Status