Early Sandblasted Pipes - Many Unknowns Yet Remain

[misterlowercase]

The early history of the sandblasted pipe remains pretty fuzzy, but the general thought among most collectors is that its origin dates to 1917 with Alfred Dunhill -
- although there is some dissent on the topic, most notably from ebay seller Mr. Can, who has stated:

"First, as a historical note, be sure to note that this YELLO-BOLE is SANDBLASTED!!! And, it was made between 1932 and 1935. Now, how do you suppose that could happen since Alfred Dunhill applied for his United States Patent for sandblasting in 1918 and it was granted by the United States Patent Office in 1920 (Patent Number 1341418/20). The Patent should preclude other pipe companies from sandblasting pipes for a minimum of 20 years - - - but in less than 15 years this YELLO-BOLE was sandblasted! What that tells you is that KB&B was sandblasting PRIOR TO Alfred Dunhill "inventing" and patenting the sandblasting process!!! In common language, KB&B was "grandfathered" (but obviously did nothing to stop Dunhill from obtaining a patent)! (Note: The same applied to Barling in England which continued sandblasting their "Fossils" even after Dunhill obtained its patent!)"

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ULTRA-RARE-1932-35-KB-B-YELLO-BOLE-SANDBLASTED-SHANK-LOGO-DOUBLE-LOGO-PRISTINE-/351051501587?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51bc4cd013&nma=true&si=iNUuQ9Nj0ALWwJI9dhbbBNfXKmw%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

...and he said this regarding Barling:

"The "SHELL" or "SHELL BRIAR" SANDBLASTED Finish is one of Dunhill's original finishes giving rise to many of the early Dunhill Patents. Although Barling originated the sandblasting process for pipes (on their "Fossils") they did not patent the process. So, Alfred Dunhill (who was never shy about copying what had been successful for his competition including the Vauen dot for the Dunhill White Spot, Comoy's oversize 800 Series for the Dunhill ODA's, and so on) went ahead and patented the sandblasting process. The early sandblasts were deep and furrowed while later ones were more shallow (probably because of the briar used rather than a difference in the process itself)."

Indeed, KBB was very early in adopting the sandblasted finish with the Thorn, and they were some damn fine examples for sure...

...and their great tradition of quality blasts carried on for a long time, continued with the Relief Grain.
Here's another Yello Bole:

And somewhat related would be WDC -

It's difficult to sort out, but if we accept that Dunhill was first, who then was second, and third, and so forth? I'd be interested to know just for historys sake.
In his 1922 bookTobaccoland, Carl Avery Werner gives us this:

"Shell briars, sometimes called relief briars, are those the bowls of which have irregular corrugations on their outer surface, like a walnut shell. This effect is obtained by a sandblasting process which grinds out the soft veins of the wood, throwing the harder veins in relief."

That's pretty early in the scheme of things and I think gives a clue that there were more makes than just Dunhill at that early stage doing the blasts.
In fact, on page 25 of this 1922 Civic catalog, you will see the Rock pipe, hard grain shrunk bruyere root, and the blast quality looks great!

http://pipeacademy.org/pdf/working_groups/Civic%20Company%201922%20Trade%20List.pdf

...early catalogs like this are invaluable to document the facts of the matter, but the printed matter is scarce.

I own this early blasted bulldog and I love its weathered beaten appearance, but the nomenclature is so worn that I'll never really know who made it.
It's extraordinarily difficult to date pipes in many cases - even when they happen to have silver hallmarks, this old horn-stemmed Hardcastle looks like the same pipe to me, sold a few years apart, yet I'm unsure because of the specs, what do you think?
http://www.smokingpipes.com/pipes/estate/england/moreinfo.cfm?product_id=50328
http://www.smokingpipes.com/pipes/estate/england/moreinfo.cfm?product_id=77303

Got to have a few early Shells here, just so beautiful...

Here's an early Parker, a 1925 Super Briar Bark:

This is a Weingott pipe, reported to be circa 1935:

...some of the more obscure makers like this will remain a mystery it seems, like Maurice and others.
Here's a very interesting Loewe, a scarce example because they didn't seem to produce many blasts, and this one looks early because of the oddly placed cartouche:

Here's what appears to be an early GBD Prehistoric, the stem is stamped "hand cut", does that help pinpoint a date?

A total mystery to me is a maker named Depi, but it looks to be an early example and the finish is quite gnarly - it might've even been rusticated first then blasted?

...and another Depi

Here's an early Comoy's Tradition, at what date did they start blasting?

And now, the famous Barling Fossil, at what date did they begin blasting?

Any maker I'm missing that may help us determine the who and when of early sandblasting?
Sasieni was late to the game, I'll speculate that the Ruff Root wasn't available until postwar, I could be wrong though, can anyone point to an early example?
The Rustic finish often looks great, and seems to try and emulate a blast finish...

...but even when well-done, here by a talented carver from Ukraine,

...a rusticated simulation just doesn't really quite capture the chaotic natural magic.
This overview of sandblasting by R.D. Field is a good primer:

http://www.rdfield.com/Articles/The%20Art%20of%20the%20....htm
And I love this article by Trever Talbert:

http://pipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Read_your_Sandblast
And this blog post by N.A.R.:

http://www.apassionforpipes.com/neills-blog/2010/9/23/what-a-blast.html
Also of interest,

Click the pop-up image for Black Diamond, the frontal shot gives a great view of the blast gun pattern in concentric rings, quite interesting. I'd say the pipe is from the late 40's to early 50's.

http://pipephil.eu/logos/en/dots/do-1dot.html
Just for reference, here's a list of sandblast names:
ANCIENT BRUYERE - Medico

ANTIQUE - diverse makers

AULD ERIN - Peterson 2nd (name used for both blast and rusticated finishes)

AX - Orlik (prefix in front of shape # on Old Bond Street grade)

BARBIC - Bartlett & Bickley (name used for both blast and rusticated finishes)

BARK - Ferndown

BARK GRAIN - Colossals

BATR - Karsten Tarp

BLACK PEARL - Jobey

BLACKRUF - Iwan Ries

BLACKTHORNE - Weber

BOLDERGRAIN - BBB

BRIARBARK - Parker

BRINDLE - Ashton

BURL GRAIN - Old Vic

BURLEY GRAIN - Civic

CAP BLANC - Chapuis Comoy

CHALLENGER - BB&S

CHAMPION - Blakemar

CHINOOK - Brigham

COLLECTOR - Jamesons

COMMODORE - Dr. Grabow

CORAL GRAIN - Ben Wade

CORTINA - Barontini

COUNTY - Dunhill

COUNTRYMAN - Tanganyika and Duncan

CRAGMOOR - Britannia

CRUSTED - BBB

CRUSTY BRIAR - Astley's (catalog notation, unsure if any pipes were actually stamped this way)

CUMBERLAND - Dunhill

CURLYNOB - Krinton

CUTLESS - Loewe (French made)

DANISH PRIDE - Ben Wade (Preben Holm)

DEEP SHELL - Dunhill

DELUXE - diverse makers

DOUBLE SAND - Orlik

DRAGOON - Britannia

DRIFTWOOD - Wallenstein (unsure if SB'd, but cool nonetheless!)

ENGLISH OVATION - Ben Wade

ENGLISH ROUGH - Fader's

ENGLISH RUSTIC - Tinder Box

FANTASY - GBD

FIELD GRAIN - Marshall Field

FOSSIL - Barling's Make

FRIAR - Jody Davis

FROG - Michael Lindner's highest grade sandblast (magnum only)

GOLDEN BARK - Parker and late Comoy's

GOLDEN DANISH - Stanwell and Preben Holm

GOLDEN ROUGH - Civic

GRANA - Rossi

GRANITAN - GBD

IMPERIA - Lorenzo

KAPRIES - Peterson

KAPRUF - Peterson

KERLYBRIAR - WDC

KING'S IMPERIAL - Blakemar

KNOBBY - Finlay's

LITESHELL - Premier

LUMBERJACK - Lloyds (Lorenzo 2nd)

LX - Orlik (prefix in front of shape # on Supreme grade)

NOBBY - BB&S

NO-WEIGHT - Parker

NUGGET BRIAR - Wally Frank

OGF - J.T. Cooke

OKF - J.T. Cooke

OLD ANTIQUARI - Castello

OLD BRIAR - diverse makers

OLD CHURCH - Ashton

OLD ENGLISH - Loewe

OMEGA - Alpha

OYSTER - Copley's

PEBBLE GRAIN - Ashton and Comoy's

PEBBLE SHELL - Ashton

PREHISTORIC - GBD

REDBARK - Dunhill

REGULAR - Don

RELIEF - Charatan and probably others

RELIEF GRAIN - Kaywoodie

RING GRAIN - Dunhill

RIPPLE - Smokecraft

RIPPLE GRAIN - BBB, Loewe, and Tinder Box

ROXBRIAR - Bomage & Hawkings

ROCK BRUYERE - Civic

RUBYBARK - Dunhill

RUFF ROOT - Sasieni

RUSTIC GRAIN - Heritage

SABBAITE - Barontini

SABBIA - Paul Bonacquisti

SABBIA ORO - Ascorti

SABBIATA - diverse Italian marques

SABLÉE - GBD and Anselmi and misc. French makers

SAHARA - Rinaldo

SANDBLAST - Comoy's amongst many others

SANDBLASTED BRIAR - L. Roux

SAND-CARVED - Delacour Bros.

SANDFLAME - Pino

SAND-GNARL - ? unknown maker

SANDGRAIN - Royal Dutch

SANDHEWN - Hardcastle

SANDROC - Cellini and Erica

SANDY - Delpi

SANGRAIN - Imperial

SANS ÉGAL - Fribourg & Treyer

SCOTCH GRAIN - Weber

SCULPTURA - Dr. Grabow

SHELL - Dunhill

SHELLCRAFT - Kaywoodie

SHELLED BRIAR - Black Diamond

SHELLMOOR - Jobey

SHILLING GRAIN - Dunhill

SILK CUT - Radice

SILVER CLOUD - Comoy's

SNIGGE - Karsten Tarp

SPECIAL - diverse makers

SPECIMEN GRAIN - ? unknown maker

SPIDER - Michael Linder (highest grade)

SUEDE BLAST - Walt Cannoy

SUPER - diverse makers

TANSHELL - Dunhill

TANTHORNE - Weber

TAPESTRY - GBD

THORN - Kaywoodie and Yello-Bole

THORNEYCROFT - BBB

TOBY SHELL - Druid Pipe Works Ltd.

TURTLE - Dal Fiume

TX - Orlik (prefix in front of shape # on De Luxe grade)

URANO - Ardor

VARIO - Stanwell

VINTAGE - diverse makers

VINTAGE CLASSIC - Michael Butera

X-TRA - Amphora and Douwe Egberts
...some of those oldies are exceedingly difficult to find, like the Toby Shell by Druid Pipe works, has anyone ever actually seen one?!?!?
I try to pick up the oddball scarce specimens whenever I come across a good one, I was lucky to find a great WDC Kerly Briar, and just recently found an Imperial Sangrain:

...and an old Orlik Double Sand is on the way too.
Any input, opinion, advice, knowledge, or general response on this topic overall would be most appreciated.
Thank you.

:puffpipe:

 

[misterlowercase]

I can't believe I forgot to mention BBB!
They were blasting fairly early it seems.
I got this red-diamond logo Ripple example,

from some time in the late 20's or early 30's I'd guess.

 

[misterlowercase]

No doubt,
who wooda thunk to apply a harsh abrasive industrial process to a briar pipe?
It was a great idea!
At that time it was common to have sandblasting to etch glass, and tombstones, and motorcycle frames (((the pic with the hooded guys is from AJS,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AJS
I would reckon other things too, what else?
...it's written that the very early Dunhill Shells were blasted out-of-house by the London Sandblasting Company, but I've found no trace of them.
I loved this image, which is actually a lumbar vertebra of a Grant's gazelle (Gazella granti) from Kenya which shows a natural erosive sand-blasting as a result of exposure on an unstabilized sandy substrate for many years...

 

[voorhees]

I've posted this before, but this is an informative post and I thought some would like to see what was happening in 1926 on a shell briar. This is my pipe.

 

[fishnbanjo]

Loved the article and the photos of the pipes, A+++.

 

[pitchfork]

mlc, do you have the 1912 BBB Catalog? There's a series of pipes called "Shortansweet"[sic] that appear to be sandblasted. I don't have the page number handy right now, but it's in the index in the front of the catalog under "Shortansweet". If they are blasted, then they're a very early example (did they buy them from Dunhill???).
Also, I believe that Charatan, in order to comply with the patent, actually rusticated their pipes before blasting.

 

[misterlowercase]

Voorhees -

Most wonderful! Thanks for posting the pic, I always love seeing the early Shells and your example is mighty fine!
Pitchfork -

yeah, I recently got that catalog, it's been eating my brain away because I see so many great pipes that I'd love to have, but will probably never find them...
...as to the Shortansweets (pg. 75),

I don't think they're blasted, it looks to be an effect of the etching/drawing style, that particular page seems darker than the other pages, making the ripple appearance look more pronounced, they sure do look blasted though, and thanks for bringing it up.
And also about Charatan,

when they did finally get around to blasting, they sure did it with aplomb!

They seemed to approach it with the same intense vigor that they did with their fine straight grains, and they produced some absolutely fabulous gnarly-as-gnargnar deep craggy blasts!
Page 25 from the aforementioned 1922 Civic catalog, listing the Rock pipe, hard grain shrunk bruyere root, (love that phraseology!), is the earliest example of an advertised sandblast other than Dunhill, I was excited when I saw it!

http://pipeacademy.org/pdf/working_groups/Civic%20Company%201922%20Trade%20List.pdf
Parker's were most definitely blasted in the early 20's, I dunno if they had a catalog or brochure at that time though?
The answers are out there, in large part, but some mysteries will always remain, it seems.

 

[papipeguy]

Troy, here's a couple of shots of my Lowe Cutlass I got in the early 1970's. Nice little pipe.

 

[misterlowercase]

Cool!
Did you buy that Loewe brand new?

 

[sablebrush52]

Thank you for a fantastic article on early sandblasted pipes. The link to the 1922 Civic catalog is very interesting. John Adler has a huge collection of early catalogs, though not, apparently, any early Barling catalogs as I contacted him regarding this. As you know, I own a full copy of a Barling catalog from circa 1918, which I have restored and published. There are no sandblasts listed in that catalog.
I tend to take Mr. Can's statements and conclusions with a grain of salt. His statement that Barling invented the process is one that I would like to see verified by something more concrete than his say so. What I can tell you is that Barling did not list sandblasts as part of their available line until 1940 (or 42, I'm at work so I can't check my records). Every year, all of the English manufacturers listed their lines of pipes in the British Trade Journal, "Tobacco World" as well as the British trade journal "Tobacco". So this information can be accessed from a research library that carries volumes of these journals. The NYPL, carries them as does the University Of California. If Barling had been selling sandblasts they would have listed them in the trade journals. They did not until 1940 (or 42).
Regarding patents, has anyone looked at the Dunhill patent to see to what extent the process is specified? KBB may have been grandfathered, or it may not. Their process may have been sufficiently different to avoid infringement of Dunhill's patent. For example, use of a different blasting material would not violate Dunhill's rights. The inclusion of sandblasts in the Civic catalog would indicated that Dunhill's rights over the process were hardly total.
Conclusions made without hard evidence should not be taken at face value.

 

[lawmax3]

In my opinion, the sandblast is by far the most interesting finish for a pipe.

Also, I think the deep and craggy blasts look even better.

 

[misterlowercase]

Regarding patents, has anyone looked at the Dunhill patent to see to what extent the process is specified?

Sable -

good question and thanks for responding.
It seems to me that if Civic was blasting air-cured briar that they would not be infringing on the patent, nor anyone else for that matter.
It seems that the Shell pat. is tied up with the oil-curing pat., in fact it could be said that they're intertwined?
The language A.D. used for the patent is very interesting, and he himself states something of peculiar note, namely that sandblasting had already been in use to create a relief surface, he said his "invention" improved the process with the unique oil-curing, thus warranted an innovation qualified for patent - at least that's how I read it --- the question remains then, if there was a maker doing it before Dunhill,

who was it???

"Although the sand blast has been used previously for the treatment of the surface of wood, to accentuate the grain, I have found in practice that this treatment in itself does not give satisfactory results, as there is a tendency for the wood to become cracked and injured, a result which does not occur with my process where it is used as an auxiliary to the treatment of steeping and by heat."

http://www.folloder.com/pdf/1341418.pdf

:

:

and,
John Loring tells us,

"The documentary history of the Shell’s beginnings is essentially limited to patent applications – there are no catalog page or advertisement birth announcements. Those applications show that the preliminary English patent application was filed on October 13, 1917 with completed application papers filed a half year later on April 12, 1918 followed by the English patent grant on October 14, 1918 just before the November 11 cease fire ending the Great War. The American patent application was prepared and filed before the English grant, on September 19 and October 14 of 1918 respectively and the US patent was granted over a year later on May 25, 1920. The Canadian papers trailed the US in both respects by a year with a 1919 application and a 1921 grant."

http://loringpage.com/pipearticles/First%20Shell.htm

:

:
It's difficult for me to track down patents 'n stuff, hard to find a reliable resource, I'm clueless as to how to find such things, I always end up swamped by junk sites.
I think all of these different patents apply to the Shell, quite a many of them!
A tangled numeric mess!
Patent No. (1917 ~ 1954) Shellbriar / Tanshell

No. year note

DUNHILL'S "SHELL BRIAR"

PAT. N ° 119708/17 1918-1929 UK sandblast

PAT. N ° 5861/12.119708/17 1918-1926 UK sb & tube

PAT. N ° 119708/17.5861/12 1918-1926 UK tube & sb

PAT. N ° 119708/17.116989/17 1927-1931 UK sb & tube / w flange

PAT. N ° 119708/17 & 116989/17 1927-1931 UK sb & tube / w flange
DUNHILL'S "SHELL" MADE IN ENGLAND

PAT.N ° 119708/17.5861/12 1918-1926 UK sb & tube

PAT.N ° 158709/14.209845/21 1924-1926 CA tube & sb

PAT.N ° 1130806/15 & 1341418/20 1924-1929 US sb & tube

PAT.N ° 1341418/20 1921-1927 US sb (※ 2)

PAT.N ° 119708/17.116989/17 1927-1931 UK sb & tube / w frange

PAT.N ° 119708/17 & 116989/17 1927-1934 UK sb & tube / w frange

PAT.N ° 209845/21 & 197365/20 1927 CA sb & tube / w frange

PAT.N ° 1341418/20 & 1343253/20 1927 US sb & tube / w frange

USPATENTS 1341418/20 & 1343253/20 1927-1933 US sb & tube / w frange

USPATENT 1341418/20 1927-1929 US sb

CANADIAN PATENTS 209845/21 & 197365/20 1928-1934 CA sb & tube / w frange

CANADIAN PATENT 209845/21 1928-1929 CA sb

USPATENTS 1341418/20 & PAT.PENDING 1932 US sb &?

CANADIAN PATENTS 209845/21 & PATENT PENDING 1933 UK sb &?

USPATENTS 1341418/20 & 1861910/32 1932-1934 US sb & vernon tenon

PAT.N ° 116989 1934 UK tube / w frange

PROV.PAT. 15114/34 1934-1935

PAT N ° 417574/34 1942-1954 US / UK unified No.
...I much prefer the method that you suggested, looking through the old UK trade journals, but those are hard to find and often fetch $$$ beyond my reach, although I do have a few copies.
The monthly editions aren't really comprehensive with listing the full range of available pipes, and it was required to pay for the line space, at an additional cost for bold print --- but the yearly annuals put out by those journals are indeed more comprehensive, yet also hens teeth...
...I would flip my lid to be sitting at a library with a full spread of the entire print run at my fingertips, it would provide a wealth of information, FACTUAL DOCUMENTED information, which is the best kind! LOL
I've been hoping to find the time at some point to try and arrange an appointment over at Alabama to view the Tom Dunn collection, it's the closest thing to me and it is a true treasure trove I'm sure!

Conclusions made without hard evidence should not be taken at face value.

Damn straight,

I agree.

What I can tell you is that Barling did not list sandblasts as part of their available line until 1940 (or 42...

Thanks for that, wow, I would have guessed earlier than that.

And another wow, during wartime?

Perhaps they began blasting because their briar supply was disrupted?

What kind of quantity of raw briar stock did they keep at the factory? Or warehouse?

How many estimated pipes were they turning out around that time?
It's ironic that I'm speculating here, but one thing leads to another.

:!:

 

[sablebrush52]

And another wow, during wartime?

Perhaps they began blasting because their briar supply was disrupted?

What kind of quantity of raw briar stock did they keep at the factory? Or warehouse?

Jon Guss and I were speculating about that. We think that Barling made a practical decision to release sandblasts in order to supply product during a time when materials were limited. It's also worth noting that Barling also expanded its range of sizes at the same time, probably to be able to use blocks which didn't fit their prior size range. Prior to 1940, or possibly 1939, Barling listed three sizes, large medium and small. That's it. But in the 1940 issue of Tobacco World they listed a broad range of sizes, which correspond to the SS thru EXEXEL size range. That's how we know that a pipe with one of those size stamps dates no earlier than 1939-40, regardless of the claims of others.

 

[papipeguy]

Troy, yes I bought it new at a small B&M in Passaic, NJ when I was in college. There are actually some sand crystals embedded in the pipe.

 

[peckinpahhombre]

What a fantastic and informative post. I always learn a ton from your posts.

 

[sablebrush52]

What a fantastic and informative post. I always learn a ton from your posts.

+1 squared. Oh, damn. That's still +1. Well, you get the idea. BTW, that early Barling sandblast that you included in your pictures, is in my collection. It's getting famous as pictures of it have appeared in a couple of different forums. I should sell it and retire. Or maybe not. It's a good pipe.

 

[cynyr]

Fascinating! Always great stuff from mlc.

 

[dmcmtk]

Troy, Great post, and very interesting in regards to what you point out about the Dunhill Patent and the oil curing process. The BBB Ripple looks very "craggy", would love to see more pics!
Dave

 

[misterlowercase]

Sablebrush

ʘ‿ʘ

yep, that's such a fine Fossil! Just about every Fossil I've seen is top shelf.

I remember seeing your pipe in one of my fave threads and it was a stunner...

http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/what-would-your-dream-blast-sandblasted-pipe-look-like

:

:

sand-blast :

a method of engraving and cutting glass and other hard materials by

the percussive forces of particles of sand driven by a steam or air blast.

Called also sand-jet.
The Progressive Dictionary of the English Language

1885

1876 Popular Science article , The Sand-Blast,

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Popular_Science_Monthly/Volume_8/January_1876/The_Sand-Blast

:

:

This video doesn't really have much to do with sandblasting, but I found it to be very interesting,

:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7LpmE9hl-c

:

...I would love to see a superslowmo video of briar being blasted!

A side topic to this discussion could be about the altering perceptions of the blast finish, I haven't really looked into it, but I'd reckon that the early blasts held alot of fascination for the novel appearance, and it's said that soldiers in the field found them to be well-suited for hard conditions. The early blasts were often priced the same as a smooth, and in some cases even cost more - at some point the blasted pipe came to be viewed as a cheaper, somehow flawed pipe and a perception that only inferior wood was used for the finish. It's unclear to me as to the timeline, and perhaps the feeling was more pronounced in Europe - it's been noted that Dunhill knew Americans seemed to love craggy blasts. An interesting sidetrack, but difficult to really gauge.
Dave -

I hesitated to take more pix of the BBB because I've still not cleaned it, but I went ahead and took some,

here it is:

Here's a good blog post from N.A.R. regarding a 30's BBB,

http://www.apassionforpipes.com/neills-blog/2010/11/23/two-great-war-vintage-pipes-from-bbb-britains-best-briars.html

...especially interesting here because the final commentator notes he has a BBB Ripple which was in a WDC case,

hmmm.
This particular BBB Ripple brings with it some questions though, and prompts speculation in my brain about an association between BBB and WDC, because the Hesson design was an American trademark and also WDC seemed to be the owners of it, using the Hesson design with evolved alterations all the way up to the late 50's I think.
The evidence, in my mind, seems to point toward a collaboration of some sort, could it actually be that WDC made the BBB, or BBB made the WDC, in the case of these early Hesson blasts?
The nomenclature looks remarkably similar, as well as the blast quality...

Hard to say, but they are strikingly alike...

 

[dmcmtk]

"...more pix of the BBB because I've still not cleaned it, but I went ahead and took some."
NICE!!! Is the BBB a push tenon or a screw in? I like the long elegant stems on both those pipes.
DC