Do Not Overlook Chinese Pipes!

[warren]

If we dont want to go there, it would be very hard for them to come to us.

They are already here, in force. In some of the US, major cities have found Chinese police stations/departments keeping an eye on Chinese immigrants and ... other things of course. Do not minimize the threat to the US, drugs seeping in through our northern and southern borders, Chinese intelligence officers sleeping with US Congressmen, buying lots of property, farm land in particular which if it continues will adversely impact our ability to feed ourselves.and so forth. Even Apple is slowing seeing the light and shrinking their China footprint. They have bragged over and over that they intend to make the world Communist and I for one, believe they are doing so as I type this. They don't need to send an army, simply subvert our government.

They not quiet about their intent. I'd say they are more driven than Stalin was. On a par with Lenin when it comes to spreading Communism throughout the world. They do "sneaky" and "overt" as suits them.

 

[captainsousie]

I use to feel lucky to be Canadian, until the Liberal government started prohibiting all of our firearms. We can no longer purchase any type of handgun, AR platform, and most semi-automatics have all been prohibited... Hopefully that all changes after the next election...

Hey! Calling politics is my gig!

Anyway, artisans should be celebrated regardless of their place of origin. Not that long ago (60s-70s) hondas and Toyotas were six pack cars (buy them in a six pack because when they run out of gas they break, and now they're some of the most reliable ....and they came from a country that was "evil" too. If you're one who can't separate people from country, you're missing out. Remember, a person is smart, people are stupid.

 

[warren]

If you're one who can't separate people from country, you're missing out.

I detest the Chinese government. Individual Chinese? I evaluate carefully and individually. Just as I do individual Americans, Canadians, Swiss, Irish and so forth. The Chinese are indeed a totally oppressed people and I won't support their oppressors, the CCP, by trading with them when such is avoidable. (Even Apple is slowly backing away.) Sending US dollars into China is supporting the CCP, can't avoid it. Your Chinese carver, if residing in China, isn't going to see a penny of US currency. Not a penny. He'll get what his government feels he needs to subsist. If your carver of choice is a party member, maybe yes, maybe no, he might see a bit of profit but, in local currency only.

Pay attention people! Or, your kids will will reap the whirlwind. The Chinese people, the ones I know are likeable but, if they have family living in China, to me they have a hammer over their heads. There is a reason, years back, they were often referred to as inscrutable as a people. Still true today I believe.

This is getting too circular.

 

[Homer]

I am 100% sure there are wonderful pipes made in China. In point of fact, I've seen more than a few on Smokingpipes similar to the looker in your post. I'm equally sure their are ones made of toxic materials which calls the genre's provenance into question. I can't remember who ran the "scientifical studies" on the $5 one from Alibaba or wherever. It didn't seem to cleanly fit into any materials category currently known when it melted/burned/died/fell over/sank into the swamp.

My only (mild) objection to purchasing one is this. In a world where a single country mass produces almost everything for daily life for the entire globe, it's rather pleasant to obtain one's objet d'arts from places with long historical context. This isn't a view I would expect anyone else to hold. I merely tend to gravitate towards pipes from the traditional places of their manufacture - UK, France, Italy, Denmark, Turkey, etc. I'm unlikely to deviate too far in my PAD.

I try to avoid buying things made in China just because everything is already made in China. I like to support other countries and their pipe makers.

 

[fireground_piper]

The GH Zhang pipes are mostly based on shapes licensed from well-known artisans with handmade mouthpieces.

What artists are trademarking pipe shapes to license them out?

 

[craiginthecorn]

What artists are trademarking pipe shapes to license them out?

They are licensed, not trademarked. In other words, the original artisan gets a portion of every pipe sold using their licensed shape. Carvers include Jeff Gracik (J Alan), David Huber, Alex Florov, Abe Herbaugh, Sergey Ailerov, Ping Zhang, Brighton James, and others.

 

[fireground_piper]

They are licensed, not trademarked. In other words, the original artisan gets a portion of every pipe sold using their licensed shape. Carvers include Jeff Gracik (J Alan), David Huber, Alex Florov, Abe Herbaugh, Sergey Ailerov, Ping Zhang, Brighton James, and others.

Right, but that indicates they own some type of license over a shape. You can't sell a use license to something you don't own some form of legal protection over so I'm curious if license is indeed the correct term here (hopefully not!) or if it was a deal where an artists designed a shape for them where they get a fee in return.

So that's what has me curious.

 

[Briar Lee]

Right, but that indicates they own some type of license over a shape. You can't sell a use license to something you don't own some form of legal protection over so I'm curious if license is indeed the correct term here (hopefully not!) or if it was a deal where an artists designed a shape for them where they get a fee in return.

So that's what has me curious.

Kaywoodie, Lee, Marxman, Weber and other smaller players made nearly countless variations of the classic shapes 80 years ago when there were about 100 times more briar pipes sold than recent times.

Only, if a shape is as iconic as the traditional Coke bottle or Michelob bottle or Volkswagen Beetle, would there be any kind of legal protection in the law of “trade dress”.

But let’s say I wanted to recreate the iconic Marxman 400 and I found a huge warehouse in the People’s Republic of Algeria crammed full of Pre 54 briar.

Marx sold those for $25 in 1937 which would be almost $550 today. They’d not sell at $550 any better today than then.

Why the artisan makers fear Chinese competitors is the Chinese, for whatever the reason, can produce a small, artistically hand made item five to ten times cheaper.

So instead of $550 “400 homage” pipes, the Chinese could market $55 to $110 pipes likely better made than Robert Marx originals.

The Chinese can market a $100 Rolex Submariner homage watch that would cost about $8,000 if it was made by Rolex,,,,,and it’s completely legal.

 

[woodsroad]

You’d be hard pressed to copyright a pipe shape and be able to prevail against an infringement. Not sure if anyone has done that. It’s just too vague. I’m sure you might prevail in it, but at what cost? Copyrighting is cheap, but the appeals process (when they initially refuse your application, or you seek damages from an infringer) is not. And a trademark isn’t the appropriate legal mechanism. A trade mark is for protecting IP that is used in trade, like a company or product name or logo. A patent protects a unique invention, like a System pipe, but not the aesthetics. Most likely, the Chinese have a license to use the artist’s name in conjunction with the artist’s specific design. The pipemaker doesn’t need to have legal protection over the pipe’s aesthetic design in order to license it. It’s the combination of design and name that makes their work valuable.

So, I may be wrong. Has anyone here have direct knowledge of a pipemaker receiving legal protection for a design, and prevailing against infringement?

 

[Richmond B. Funkenhouser]

But let’s say I wanted to recreate the iconic Marxman 400 and I found a huge warehouse in the People’s Republic of Algeria crammed full of Pre 54 briar.

Pure Briar Lee gold.

 

[fireground_piper]

You’d be hard pressed to copyright a pipe shape and be able to prevail against an infringement. Not sure if anyone has done that. It’s just too vague. I’m sure you might prevail in it, but at what cost? Copyrighting is cheap, but the appeals process (when they initially refuse your application, or you seek damages from an infringer) is not. And a trademark isn’t the appropriate legal mechanism. A trade mark is for protecting IP that is used in trade, like a company or product name or logo. A patent protects a unique invention, like a System pipe, but not the aesthetics. Most likely, the Chinese have a license to use the artist’s name in conjunction with the artist’s specific design. The pipemaker doesn’t need to have legal protection over the pipe’s aesthetic design in order to license it. It’s the combination of design and name that makes their work valuable.

So, I may be wrong. Has anyone here have direct knowledge of a pipemaker receiving legal protection for a design, and prevailing against infringement?

That's why I'm curious as the initial statement is they licensed a shape from the artisans.

 

[woodsroad]

That's why I'm curious as the initial statement is they licensed a shape from the artisans.

Either just incomplete information, total bullshit or something was lost in translation. Either way, a contract with China ain't worth shit.

 

[Hillcrest]

The problem with chinese manufactured goods is their unreliability. Depending on who made the goods some are very high quality and some are garbage. They do not have the same regulations as America and many small goods are made in small local factories. For example, many plastic 'copy' fountain pens would simple crack and fall apart while lying on a desk or in a drawer...why? because the local factory ran out of one of the ingredients to make the acrylic but continued to make the pens anyway even though they became brittle when exposed to the air. The brass they use in their brass pens has excessive levels of mercury beyond that allowed by US standards.
Thats o.k. until the protective coating wears off and your hands are exposed directly. But if you are willing to do your research you can find high quality manufactured goods made to US standards. However, an homage to a rolex is not a rolex ... maybe a kotex.

 

[Briar Lee]

Seagull Triple Grand Complication​

In the so-called "Triple Grand Complication" combination of the tourbillon, perpetual calendar, and minute repeater functions, redesigning and repositioning the 435 parts into the limited space is as difficult as developing an entirely new complex movement. Even in the “Kingdom of Watches”, few brands are capable of this achievement. At that time, the launch of Seagull’s “tourbillon, perpetual calendar, minute repeater” wristwatch struck a chord with everyone who cared about the watchmaking industry, delighting and energizing them.

Beyond its functionalities, the "Triple Grand Complication" is no longer just a simple movement, but presents itself to the world as a high-precision and highly complex precision instrument. To ensure the accuracy of the perpetual calendar and the precision of the minute repeater, it requires the production of high-precision components, with machining accuracy reaching 0.001mm, which is one-tenth the diameter of a human hair. Some key components even achieve an unprecedented surface finish of level 13, equivalent to a mirror-like level. To produce such components, efforts were made to increase the introduction of advanced foreign equipment, while rigorous repeated experiments continuously improved process capabilities. Only through this could the precision machining techniques be progressively enhanced and improved, making modest achievements.




The Swiss version is about fifty times more expensive.




My $175 Orient Mako II was totally assembled using a Japanese movement and Asian made bracelet and case in the Orient factory in Japan.



Chinese copies cost about $35.

Counterfeits are such a problem Orient keeps a serial number check site.

Search by Back Cover Indication Number | User Guides | SUPPORT | ORIENT WATCHES

This page allows you to search for ORIENT product User Guides by using back cover indication number. The official website for ORIENT watches.

watch-dl1.epson.biz

When I was in college almost fifty years ago, about 90% of Chinese were extremely poor, as in living in huts with no running water and sometimes starving. Today less than one per cent are extremely poor. This is because the Chinese government established laws allowing for expansion of manufacturing, and they educated every child to be able to work in factories. They all write in calligraphy. Decoration of trinkets is easy for them.

One of the few bedrock core beliefs I have is everyone in this world is born a perfect child of God. The differences we see in wealth and development is due to education.

When I was in college America worried about Japan taking over America. Today Japan is so wealthy they have China make their trinkets.

In another fifty years, China might be so wealthy they have their trinkets made in India, and so on, until each nation on earth makes their own trinkets again, or buys them from the best trinket maker.

Unless we mess up and kill each other, in the meantime.

 

[tbradsim1]

NOPE!

 

[wyfbane]

When I was in college America worried about Japan taking over America. Today Japan is so wealthy they have China make their trinkets.

In another fifty years, China might be so wealthy they have their trinkets made in India, and so on, until each nation on earth makes their own trinkets again, or buys them from the best trinket maker.

Unless we mess up and kill each other, in the meantime.

^just about this part.

I remember the 80s. We were worried about Japan because they made some alarming inroads into our markets that were unprecedented (for them) and alarming to some. I wasnt as worried as most because:

A. They never had a military to back up that Expansion.

B. They never owned anywhere near what British investment was nor I think did they pass the Dutch (could be wrong about the Dutch).

The ChiComs are an entirely different entity altogether. Some of it is fuelled by huge cultural differences. They have a 100 year plan. We struggle with a 180 DAY plan. The intentions of a country matter.

Their deals for raw material mining in Africa and around the world matter.

Their ports at either end (and bridges over) the Panama canal matter.

Their creation of islands to keep pushing out their "sovereign territory" at the expense of all their neighbors who used to fish those international waters matters.

The fact that China has the most active industrial espionage program in the world and steal everything not nailed down matters.

Warren is right. Our descendants will reap what we are sowing with our indifference and ignorance of history/foreign policy.

Also, ibtl

 

[craiginthecorn]

Either just incomplete information, total bullshit or something was lost in translation. Either way, a contract with China ain't worth shit.

Look, here's what I know about GH Zhang's agreement with the artisans, based upon a direct face-to-face conversation with one of the American carvers. Not speculation. Definitely not "total bullshit."

The carvers I mentioned get a stipend for every pipe that GH Zhang makes which is based upon a shape original carved by the artisan. If GH Zhang was unscrupulous, they could simply duplicate the shape and sell it and give nothing to the original artisan. The artisan would know and be angry, but AFAIK, shapes aren't something you can trademark or patent. Instead, the company chooses to co-brand the pipes, giving the artisan a cut of the proceeds. The carver's brand is added to the pipe alongside the GH Zhang stamp. Each pipe includes a card telling the buyer something about the carver who designed the pipe. Don't think they get paid? Well ask the carvers! If they weren't being paid, this is a small community. The other carvers would know quickly. Yet GH Zhang has been adding artisans, not losing them. These pipes are being sold by Laudisi on the smokingpipes.com website. Do you really think Sykes would sell pipes that pirate not only the shape but the name of artisans whose pipes are also featured on Smokingpipes.com? In the end, it seems likely that it's the same business model that Stanwell used to follow with some of its shapes back in the day.

As for quality, I am not persuaded by stories about any number of poorly made products from China or anywhere else in the world. Every product stands in its own merits. I am a Peterson collector, but I'll take a handmade mouthpiece from any GH Zhang pipe over the best mouthpiece Peterson makes. Furthermore, if you know any of these carvers, you'd know that they want to protect their brand image, so they wouldn't give permission to put their name on a poorly made piece.

 

[craiginthecorn]

Most likely, the Chinese have a license to use the artist’s name in conjunction with the artist’s specific design. The pipemaker doesn’t need to have legal protection over the pipe’s aesthetic design in order to license it. It’s the combination of design and name that makes their work valuable.

My understanding as that this is correct, with the added clarification that "the Chinese" is GH Zhang and not the government of China.

 

[georged]

Look, here's what I know about GH Zhang's agreement with the artisans, based upon a direct face-to-face conversation with one of the American carvers. Not speculation. Definitely not "total bullshit."

The carvers I mentioned get a stipend for every pipe that GH Zhang makes which is based upon a shape original carved by the artisan. If GH Zhang was unscrupulous, they could simply duplicate the shape and sell it and give nothing to the original artisan. The artisan would know and be angry, but AFAIK, shapes aren't something you can trademark or patent. Instead, the company chooses to co-brand the pipes, giving the artisan a cut of the proceeds. The carver's brand is added to the pipe alongside the GH Zhang stamp. Each pipe includes a card telling the buyer something about the carver who designed the pipe. Don't think they get paid? Well ask the carvers! If they weren't being paid, this is a small community. The other carvers would know quickly. Yet GH Zhang has been adding artisans, not losing them. These pipes are being sold by Laudisi on the smokingpipes.com website. Do you really think Sykes would sell pipes that pirate not only the shape but the name of artisans whose pipes are also featured on Smokingpipes.com? In the end, it seems likely that it's the same business model that Stanwell used to follow with some of its shapes back in the day.

As for quality, I am not persuaded by stories about any number of poorly made products from China or anywhere else in the world. Every product stands in its own merits. I am a Peterson collector, but I'll take a handmade mouthpiece from any GH Zhang pipe over the best mouthpiece Peterson makes. Furthermore, if you know any of these carvers, you'd know that they want to protect their brand image, so they wouldn't give permission to put their name on a poorly made piece.

Both sides of this debate are right, because you aren't talking about the same thing.

It depends if an enterprise is large enough to be on the government radar.

If it is not, citc's description/experience is how things happen. If it ever crosses the threshold into "noticed" territory, there will be a knock on Zhang's door and his world will change.

 

[woodsroad]

On what basis can you POSSIBLY claim that what I have stated is "total bullshit" and that "a contract we with China ain't worth shit"? Seems to me you're painting with a very bigoted and broad brush.

OK, my response had nothing to do with you, so please calm down
My response was such:

*****************

That's why I'm curious as the initial statement is they licensed a shape from the artisans.

Either just incomplete information, total bullshit or something was lost in translation. Either way, a contract with China ain't worth shit.
*****************
I never saw your post, didn't know you had posted, and was not responding to you or what it was you wrote. So stop accusing people of racism and bigotry. I'll accept your apology at any time.

My basis for "contract ain't worth shit":
I know several people who, as part of their jobs in manufacturing, had to explore the possibility of moving manufacturing to PRC, then serve as liason to the manufacturer or manufacturer's rep. The US company's legal people drew up all the contracts and NDA's and the Chinese representatives happily signed them, as government supervisors watched carefully. The US companies were forced to make the legal locality in China, meaning that all disputes had to be settled in China, under Chinese laws, not the US.

No sooner was the Chinese manufacturer (or manufacturing rep) shipping product back to the US, than their products began showing up on Ali Babba, eBay, etc, under a different brand, at 1/4 the price. The manufacturers pleaded innocence, and the US company effectively had nowhere to go to seek redress, since the Chinese authorities refused to hear their complaint.

I have every reason to be suspicious of the Chinese government. I had a very large investment in a Chinese tutoring company called TAL Education Group. It made me a tremendous amount of money, but I lost a sizeable chunk of what I still held when the Chinese government declared that tutoring companies must operate as non-profits. So, in the end, my investment only returned about 800% instead of 1100%.

Oh, dear. Brag about wealth without bragging about wealth. OK

Now, I'll remove all of your misdirected vitriol and explain what got licensed, and why.
Zhang realizes that there is real value in the artist's name and that the pipemaker has a dedicated following. Licensing is not a move made out of altruism or good will. It captures the real value of the pipe, which is not the pipe. The pipe looks good, and can easily be copied on a CNC machine and sold cheap as a commodity. It's already been done. But if the Chinese can attach the original designer's name to that knockoff, and all of of the implied value and cache that the names carries, then the value goes up at least tenfold.

As for why I don't trust China in general, well, I guess you need to read the news.