Do Estate Pipe Crimp the New Pipe Market?
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I'd say it's likely a bit of both. On the one hand, buying an estate means money not spent on a new pipe. On the other hand, knowledge of pipes and tobaccos accrued through the lower costs associated with an estate pipe sometimes translate later on as purchases of new examples of a favored factory or artisan make.
Well, still an opinion, but Chuck Stanion has recently written about the early days of Pipes and Tobacco Magazine. In order to secure ads from manufacturers and distributors and have B&M ‘s sell the magazine in stores, they had to agree not to accept ads from estate pipe dealers.
My own opinion? Of course the existence of an estate pipe market “hurts” new pipe sales. But back in those days, lots of things were going on, including the emergence of a vibrant grey market (I recall getting a newsletter from either the Siegel’s or Dave Fields in 1983 advertising grey market Castellos, and about that time the owner of the Lenox Square Tinderbox started bringing in Castellos directly from Italy). Barry Levin revolutionized the marketing of estate pipes with periodic distribution of high quality picture packs, with pipes reconditioned by Jim Cooke. Then the internet came along. So much has changed. Hard to single out one factor, and certain parts of the new pipe market seem vibrant to me.
Again, my opinion. Back in those days I discussed this issue with several dealers and a couple of people involved in new pipe distribution. I tried to make the case that the existence of an estate market freed up funds, some of which would inevitably go to new pipes. The owner of the two Edwards franchises in Atlanta was buying and selling estate pipes on a low key basis already, partly for this reason, partly because he marked new and estate pipes up the same, but for those who had already made up their minds that estate pipes were cancer, you might as well have been talking to a brick wall.
I buy new and estate pipes, but a factor in my decision making is always my estimate of the cost in both markets coupled with my opinion of whether the pipe has certain features that make it unique. The last pipe I bought, a 1993 Castello POY, was New Old Stock from an Italian dealer who had purchased it from a customer. I had been looking for the pipe for a while, and would have bought either an estate or new piece, subject to the finish, condition and price meeting my criteria.
My own opinion? Of course the existence of an estate pipe market “hurts” new pipe sales. But back in those days, lots of things were going on, including the emergence of a vibrant grey market (I recall getting a newsletter from either the Siegel’s or Dave Fields in 1983 advertising grey market Castellos, and about that time the owner of the Lenox Square Tinderbox started bringing in Castellos directly from Italy). Barry Levin revolutionized the marketing of estate pipes with periodic distribution of high quality picture packs, with pipes reconditioned by Jim Cooke. Then the internet came along. So much has changed. Hard to single out one factor, and certain parts of the new pipe market seem vibrant to me.
Again, my opinion. Back in those days I discussed this issue with several dealers and a couple of people involved in new pipe distribution. I tried to make the case that the existence of an estate market freed up funds, some of which would inevitably go to new pipes. The owner of the two Edwards franchises in Atlanta was buying and selling estate pipes on a low key basis already, partly for this reason, partly because he marked new and estate pipes up the same, but for those who had already made up their minds that estate pipes were cancer, you might as well have been talking to a brick wall.
I buy new and estate pipes, but a factor in my decision making is always my estimate of the cost in both markets coupled with my opinion of whether the pipe has certain features that make it unique. The last pipe I bought, a 1993 Castello POY, was New Old Stock from an Italian dealer who had purchased it from a customer. I had been looking for the pipe for a while, and would have bought either an estate or new piece, subject to the finish, condition and price meeting my criteria.
Hurts more than it helps, at least according to my purchases. I'd have fewer pipes if I could buy only new at fair market prices; and I'd have more new ones.
Its good for the environment, its good for less blessed pipe smokers like me, my collection is 80% estates. It creates jobs for some. You cant get a new Genuine Barling unless you pay a few thousand dollars, its because of estate market we still have access to vintage and antique pipes.
Cheers,
Chris
Cheers,
Chris
At the high end, I beg to differ. I own several pipes that I smoke, and several that are simply too fine to smoke (for me anyway). The reason I have 'extra' pipes is because I love them (as a collector), and I know that I will get much of my money back when its time to sell them on the estate market.
Without the estate market, there would be much less collecting (hoarding) of pipes.
Without the estate market, there would be much less collecting (hoarding) of pipes.
Out of my 22 Rad Davis pipes, 14 were bought new. If there were no estate pipes on the market, I most likely would have bought more new ones. My 8 estate Rad's were all bought at a nice discount compared to new ones. Many of my other artisan pipes were bought as estates so that money would have gone to new pipes. I am sure I wouldn't have nearly as many artisan pipes if it were not for the estate market.
Most all pipe smokers have far more pipes than they need..Much of this excess is estate pipes that are bought because of price..Most of us probably would not have as many pipes as we do if we had to pay full price for new ones..If there were no estate pipes to hold the price of new ones down some of us might be back to the days when pipe smokers only had one pipe.
I don't believe there can be any question that estate pipes negatively affect the volume of new pipes purchased.
If there were no estate pipes there would be no pipe collectors except the wealthy who buy high-end luxury items.
I think there is a synergy effect between the estate and the new pipe markets, and it's impossible to say whether or not it benefits new pipes.
I think there is a synergy effect between the estate and the new pipe markets, and it's impossible to say whether or not it benefits new pipes.
I think that the estate market has helped the new pipe market considerably. From a risk standpoint, I find it harder to spend $500.00 on a new pipe from a pipe maker that I’m not familiar with, knowing that if the pipe doesn’t pan out, I’ve lost at least half of my investment. However I feel much easier spending $250.00 on an estate pipe from which I can recoup most of my investment if said pipe doesn’t pan out. I have found many artisan pipe makers through the estate market and I’ve lost my ass several times on new pipes from highly recommended artisan pipe makers when it turned out that I just didn’t care for some of that makers individual touches. If there were no estate pipes, it’s very likely that my racks would be much less diverse.
Me, I honestly don't know, although I probably fall more into Jesse's stance than anything else.
Y'all of course all know that I'm primarily a dinosaur, living in the past & loving several (dozen) specific pipe types/makers. Mostly, though not exclusively ones from BIMD (Back In !MY! Day). My collection's probably 85% or better estates. But I do go for the newer ones too. As witness (WARNING -- RAMBLE AHEAD. If you're not up for meander, just bypass no. -laugh-)
We all remember last year when Sav & Peterson brought out the Xmas pipes & we all had our say, grump & no-grump. I'd been on the fence about whether I liked the froot loop green stem of the 2018 St. Nicholas. Finally a few days ago while trying to brainstorm a problem for Mike T., I went in on one of our favorite sites & was noodling around & figured, oh, what the heck, see what they have in the St. Nicholas arena. They had some, but by the time I came to a decision several days later the only one I was interested in was gone, so I did what anybody would expect & hit *B*y. Lo & behold I found just what I was looking for, factory fresh, from a guy in WI, so I jumped on the sucker with all 4 feet, a gorgeous 626 shape.
It took me a while, but I found what I wanted in a new pipe & did pull the trigger on it, for a red hair less than $100. If it were still the 70s/80s, I'd probably be buying nothing *but* new, but I also wouldn't have the gorgeous Winslow I bought a few months ago, or any of a number of other true gems that grace my racks now.
I may buy mostly estates, but it doesn't exclude me from buying new. I think it mainly depends on whether your tastes got primarily to retro or not. You may now return to the less verbose & rambling, with my humble apologies to those I put to sleep!
Bill
Y'all of course all know that I'm primarily a dinosaur, living in the past & loving several (dozen) specific pipe types/makers. Mostly, though not exclusively ones from BIMD (Back In !MY! Day). My collection's probably 85% or better estates. But I do go for the newer ones too. As witness (WARNING -- RAMBLE AHEAD. If you're not up for meander, just bypass no. -laugh-)
We all remember last year when Sav & Peterson brought out the Xmas pipes & we all had our say, grump & no-grump. I'd been on the fence about whether I liked the froot loop green stem of the 2018 St. Nicholas. Finally a few days ago while trying to brainstorm a problem for Mike T., I went in on one of our favorite sites & was noodling around & figured, oh, what the heck, see what they have in the St. Nicholas arena. They had some, but by the time I came to a decision several days later the only one I was interested in was gone, so I did what anybody would expect & hit *B*y. Lo & behold I found just what I was looking for, factory fresh, from a guy in WI, so I jumped on the sucker with all 4 feet, a gorgeous 626 shape.
It took me a while, but I found what I wanted in a new pipe & did pull the trigger on it, for a red hair less than $100. If it were still the 70s/80s, I'd probably be buying nothing *but* new, but I also wouldn't have the gorgeous Winslow I bought a few months ago, or any of a number of other true gems that grace my racks now.
I may buy mostly estates, but it doesn't exclude me from buying new. I think it mainly depends on whether your tastes got primarily to retro or not. You may now return to the less verbose & rambling, with my humble apologies to those I put to sleep!
Bill
Puffy- That's totally true of our active members! But it doesn't apply to most pipe smokers according to many observations over the years. And I agree most of us would have fewer pipes without the estate market—and per force, they'd all be bought new!
I am a very small collector and I will say that the estate market allowed me to educate myself on different grades of pipes, on what kind of pipe works best for me, on what makes a pipe collectable and desirable, and on the difference, the fine line, between craftsmanship and art in pipemaking. Before purchasing estates I was a "pipe is merely a tool" type of guy and now I am a "pipe can be a functional piece of art" guy.
Without the estate market I would probably have stopped purchasing pipes at the MM cob level. And if I had never started collecting pipes, I wouldn't now own any of the high grades I do, half of which is comprised of direct commissions from carvers.
Without the estate market I would probably have stopped purchasing pipes at the MM cob level. And if I had never started collecting pipes, I wouldn't now own any of the high grades I do, half of which is comprised of direct commissions from carvers.
I think it is usually two separate markets within the market. Folks with the mindset to buy a new or have a commissioned piece created were most likely going to do that from the beginning. Some pipes just are not available new, if you are chasing a certain older brand, there really is no other choice than estate pipes.
Don
Don
I probably do have more pipes than I need, although I smoke them all. In my collection, I have some lovely Stanwells, Barlings, Comoys and a Tsuge. All but one of these better pipes were purchased as estate pipes. I bid a modest amount and see most of them go to a higher bidder. But oh the bargains I've made. Were it not for estates my collection of new pipes would be limited to cobs and basket pipes. I love my pipes and enjoy smoking them. My enjoyment has been greatly enhanced by the availability of estates. Would I have bought new high-end pipes instead? Out of the question. Estates allow me to enjoy a little champagne on my beer purse.
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