Cheap v.s. expensive VA

[kschatey]

? Newminster 400

I also enjoy Stokkebye Luxury Twist Flake quite a bit.

 

[skydog]

? Newminster 400

I also enjoy Stokkebye Luxury Twist Flake quite a bit.

This is about the cheapest VA I've cellared pounds of. After a few years in the jar it really starts to shine.

I think some of the more expensive VA is better quality tobacco but a lot of it is also the aging and processing. There are some C&D and GL Pease VA blends that I've cellared but it's common knowledge that these aren't ever aged any significant amount of time before tinning. Other manufacturers do age their VA before tinning or have specific ways they press or heat the tobaccos that give them their own special character.

I sampled a number of the bulk VA blends that were regularly posted about as high quality and found some I enjoyed that I thought would continue to get better with age. In the end it doesn't matter how much it costs, only whether you enjoy it or not. Sample some bulks and some of the more expensive tinned VAs out there and decide what you would prefer to cellar. Even the most expensive tins are still a bargain on a per-bowl cost basis compared to cigars.

 

[Andriko]

Very true, and very good points.

Maybe another thing that influences it could be overhead as well. I own a small replacement window business. I sell many of the exact same brands as the big boys in my area, and in some cases even use the exact same installers, but it’s not uncommon for me to beat their prices by THOUSANDS of dollars on a particular job. Namely, bc they have much more overhead than I do due to the sheer size of their businesses. They have trucks, showrooms, warehouses, people answering phones, etc. I have my truck and my smile, ?, and I guess some business cards.

Idk much about the facilities and costs related to the bigger tobacco businesses like GLP or G&H, but I’d imagine those are bigger businesses than say P&C’s match operation.

That's a good point also, there is such a thing as 'dis-economy of scale', and I reckon the tobacco industry these days is a pretty weird one with odd outcomes.

 

[Andriko]

Label design and packaging is 100% part of marketing. And running “tasting notes” videos, plus giving samples to reviewers is also part of marketing and it all costs $$.

That's a fair point, though labels are becomig a thing of the past (in some places anyway), so even there they are saving money. It's true giving out samples owuld cost, but I doubt it's much, and I also think it might be the case that in some places giving tobacco samples for marketing purposes is probably forbidden as well.

 

[Searock Fan]

That's a good point also, there is such a thing as 'dis-economy of scale', and I reckon the tobacco industry these days is a pretty weird one with odd outcomes.

I learn something new every day. Thanks!

 

[Beers 'N Briars]

That's a fair point, though labels are becomig a thing of the past (in some places anyway), so even there they are saving money. It's true giving out samples owuld cost, but I doubt it's much, and I also think it might be the case that in some places giving tobacco samples for marketing purposes is probably forbidden as well.

Regulations are certainly different everywhere, but there is payed advertising on this website and in other publications here in the US. But you’re not going to see it on TV for certain, nor would it appear in Highlights Magazine. And when I see packaging like C&D’s Folklore, I know that beyond the cost of the packaging itself, including the reusable vinyl cling, that the real cost is paying people to come up with the design. My buddy designs beer labels for his living, and the costs to breweries are quite high. They pay to attempt to catch the consumer’s eye when it’s sitting on a rack next to dozens of other options. Well designed labels and “limited” series are all developed by marketing people for many of these companies.

 

[AlanH]

I like all kinds of Virginias for a deal I second or third Newminster 400 also the Sutliff slices and Peter Stokkebye

 

[edger]

I don't care for most drug store otc's. I detect too many chemical flavors. I enjoy three C&D bulk blends and I have cellared them in quantity. They are very basic and very "clean" tasting to me.
Three Friars
Derringer
Bayou Morning
These blends are often reviewed as having a "rough" quality, but, if sipped, they are quite good and nuanced. But, then again, I'm just an unapologetic codger.

 

[anotherbob]

I think it's a number of things. Including market. For example low country is sold by one place they don't need to worry about things like distribution or making sure shop owners are aware of the blend.

 

[Hovannes]

Find some bulk blends that you enjoy.
Bulk blends are nearly always less costly than tins and generally have far less PG than the OTC offerings. Exploring them is easy since you can buy an ounce or two at a time and if you want to cellar for the Zombie Apocalypse there is often a price break for the more you order.
The quality of the tobacco from first rate bulk blenders is second to none in my experience

 

[anotherbob]

Regulations are certainly different everywhere, but there is payed advertising on this website and in other publications here in the US. But you’re not going to see it on TV for certain, nor would it appear in Highlights Magazine. And when I see packaging like C&D’s Folklore, I know that beyond the cost of the packaging itself, including the reusable vinyl cling, that the real cost is paying people to come up with the design. My buddy designs beer labels for his living, and the costs to breweries are quite high. They pay to attempt to catch the consumer’s eye when it’s sitting on a rack next to dozens of other options. Well designed labels and “limited” series are all developed by marketing people for many of these companies.

so much more goes into those designs then people think. When people say look at how easy and simple that is. My response is then why don't you do it and see if you can pull the magic of getting paid to make something so simple.

 

[JohnMosesBrowning]

Well, I've mentioned this elsewhere, but it's apt here as well...

Capstan Blue @ Smokingpipes.com on 3/31/22 is $16.85 for a 1.75oz. tin. That's $154 per pound.
Sutliff Virginia Slices @ Smokingpipes.com on 3/31/22 is $40.46 per pound.

I'm not saying these are equivalents, but is Capstan almost 4x better than Virginia Slices? And I know packaging in tins is expensive, but it's hard to imagine that the 9 or so tins it takes to package up a pound of Capstan adds $100.
Again, not saying anything disparaging, just doing some math.

 

[fireground_piper]

I don’t think it’s fair to try and do an equivalency. Like different priced pipes, it comes down to what you like and if you want to pay the cost for it.

If you like capstan, it’s price is the price of admission to enjoy capstan. If I feel like a bowl of capstan, a bowl of union square isn’t going to satisfy that.

 

[anotherbob]

Well, I've mentioned this elsewhere, but it's apt here as well...

Capstan Blue @ Smokingpipes.com on 3/31/22 is $16.85 for a 1.75oz. tin. That's $154 per pound.
Sutliff Virginia Slices @ Smokingpipes.com on 3/31/22 is $40.46 per pound.

I'm not saying these are equivalents, but is Capstan almost 4x better than Virginia Slices? And I know packaging in tins is expensive, but it's hard to imagine that the 9 or so tins it takes to package up a pound of Capstan adds $100.
Again, not saying anything disparaging, just doing some math.

I never feel ripped off buying a tin. But when I buy tins in quantity I suddenly feel ripped off. And that's a great illustration.

 

[Beers 'N Briars]

Well, I've mentioned this elsewhere, but it's apt here as well...

Capstan Blue @ Smokingpipes.com on 3/31/22 is $16.85 for a 1.75oz. tin. That's $154 per pound.
Sutliff Virginia Slices @ Smokingpipes.com on 3/31/22 is $40.46 per pound.

I'm not saying these are equivalents, but is Capstan almost 4x better than Virginia Slices? And I know packaging in tins is expensive, but it's hard to imagine that the 9 or so tins it takes to package up a pound of Capstan adds $100.
Again, not saying anything disparaging, just doing some math.

Part of that is probably because Sutliff is produced in the US but Capstan has to be imported here. That certainly adds extemporaneous costs beyond the costs of production itself. But the question you ask is itself pertinent regardless. Is it worth 4x as much? Well, I've got pounds of the Sutliff and not a single tin of Capstan in my cellar. And I like Capstan well enough, but I only ever bought and tried it in the first place because of Tolkien. And I usually will recommend it to fellow pipe smokers who are new to the hobby and have come to it through Tolkien like many of us. But I won't recommend Escudo because I already have to share the limited amount out there with a bunch of you already!

 

[DanWil84]

My latest order contains a few VA's with also some cheaper options like Hamborger Veermaster which is €100 a kilo less expensive than for example premium offerings like Capstan or HH. For those €100 I should also buy jars as the difference is its in 250 grams bags "bulk".

 

[PiedmontPipe]

There are quite a few good options for less expensive VA's out there. They all have their own unique characteristics but can be a good value for the money. One of my all time favorites and one of my essential tobaccos is PS Luxury Bullseye Flake. This can be obtained at a reasonable price and is quite good when fresh, but greatly improves with some aging. Newminster 400 is another quality choice. Sutliff VA slices is another. There are many other choices.

With some of these bulk options, you may not initially get some of the complexities and nuances that you may with some of the more expensive and readily known tin options, but if you buy in decent quantity, and jar and let it age, these cheaper bulk options can transform into some really special. Don't let the cost or the pretty packaging lead you to believe that some of the bulk options are inferior. Try a few and see what you think.

I’m enjoying a pipe of Newminster 400 as I read this thread and considering filling a few jars of it for down the road. Watch for sales too.

 

[dunnyboy]

If you're buying 10 pounds of virginia tobacco to age, it raises the question of whether there is a meaningful difference in the aging process between jars and unopened tins. I don't know the answer to that question—which might even be individual taste—but the advantage of tins is that you can open 1.75 oz at a time without exposing the rest of the tobacco to oxygen. Of course, you could separate the 10 pounds into 80 x 2 oz canning jars and accomplish something similar. The most space-saving way to store 10 pounds of tobacco would likely be in airtight kevlar pouches. But if you're doing a cost comparison, you'd have to factor in the cost of mason jars (reusable), or kevlar pouches, to your total cost.

 

[karam]

Well, I've mentioned this elsewhere, but it's apt here as well...

Capstan Blue @ Smokingpipes.com on 3/31/22 is $16.85 for a 1.75oz. tin. That's $154 per pound.
Sutliff Virginia Slices @ Smokingpipes.com on 3/31/22 is $40.46 per pound.

I'm not saying these are equivalents, but is Capstan almost 4x better than Virginia Slices? And I know packaging in tins is expensive, but it's hard to imagine that the 9 or so tins it takes to package up a pound of Capstan adds $100.
Again, not saying anything disparaging, just doing some math.

MacBaren (who make Capstan) are on the expensive side across the board. If we're comparing apples to apples in terms of high-profile Virginia Flakes, here 450g of Capstan (9 tins) costs 134 CHF, while 450g of SG FVF or plug costs 117 CHF. For me Capstan was pure hot air, while I already have a couple of slabs of Full Virginia plug in my drawers and no Capstan. Fribourg & Treyer costs 126 CHF for 9 tins (of Cut Virginia, or Cut Blended plugs), both of which I found vastly superior to Capstan and would happily cellar. Some of the German blends by K&K and Dan are cheaper than either the English or Danish blends, and still deliver amazing flavour.

For reference, as an import from the US, all C&D and GLP tins cost 22 CHF here, making them the most expensive pipe tobacco on the market.

In my opinion what it boils down to is retailer/importer markup and taxes vs quality. It's all good leaf, what I'd consider bad leaf is the hot air Cavendish which is drenched with PG + flavourings to make the OTC aromatics, purely on the basis of having any and all natural taste of the leaf steamed out of it to receive the flavourings.

 

[PaulTheScandinavian]

I'm not an expert, so take this for what it's worth: much of the extra money goes to the name. There are other factors, naturally, but an inexpensive tobacco can be every bit as good as the high priced blends. As with pipes, you probably shouldn't believe that just because it costs more it's better.

Amphora Virginia 'Yellow ' is a good example of descent quality Virgina tobacco which equals in terms of quality to tinned versions of Mc Barens virginias