Charles Rattray/McConnell - VAs

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Mury

Starting to Get Obsessed
May 31, 2025
142
302
Hello all! Does anyone know what the straight VAs (OG, HOTW, BC) looked like from the 70s and 80s? These would be the tins produced by Charles Rattray in Perth and the 80s would be by McConnell.

Also, does anyone know what they look like before 1970?

I have seen the older tins of the other blends but not the straight VA’s.
 

Mury

Starting to Get Obsessed
May 31, 2025
142
302
I’ve smoked some of them, and they looked like Virginias.
What, exactly, are you looking to find out?
I realized I didn’t clarify in the post. I wanted to know first what these tins looked like from the 70s or before. Specifically the straight Virginias.

Then I was planning on posting an iso for one but I realize I don’t have enough points to post one.
 
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sablebrush52

The Bard Of Barlings
Jun 15, 2013
22,960
58,314
Southern Oregon
jrs457.wixsite.com
I realized I didn’t clarify in the post. I wanted to know first what these tins looked like from the 70s or before. Specifically the straight Virginias.

Then I was planning on posting an iso for one but I realize I don’t have enough points to post one.
In terms of label design they looked pretty much the same as they do now.


From an article about dating Rattray's tins authored by John Loring:
Rattray

More mistakes are made in dating Rattray tobacco tins than with any other brand. The key is to generally disregard the label and look at the tin itself.

Rattray was a Scottish tobacconist who closed up shop in about 1980 but whose highly regarded pipe tobacco blends continue to the present day. Up to about 1970 all Rattray tobacco was blended by Rattray and came in tall thin 4 ounce 'knife lid' (or briefly in the 1960's in 4 ounce 'lever') tins. These tins were all labeled 'Made by Rattray'. [For reasons unknown the Highland Targe label has never been imprinted either 'Made by' or 'Made for' and dating of this blend has to be done by the tin top and bottom alone.] It is generally thought that Rattray continued blending all of its blends for another ten years and then, in 1980, turned them over to Robert McConnell, a fine English blender. However, based on a conversation related by Irwin Friedman with a former Rattray employee and which I find, with some modification, collaborated by the packaging, it appears rather that in about 1970 Rattray turned over the blending of some of its blends intended for the United States to McConnell. McConnel labeled the tins it blended 'Made forRattray'. Rattray continued to blend itself the tins intended for the English and European markets, as well as all the blends of lesser demand, which tins were labeled, as in the past, 'Made by Rattray'.

When Rattray closed its doors in 1980 McConnell took over the blending of all the Rattray labeled tobacco, but did not change the labeling, thus after 1980 some McConnell blended tins were labeled 'Made for Rattray' while others also blended by McConnell were nonetheless labeled 'Made by Rattray'. McConnell blended in England through the 1980s but shifted production to Germany (and later elsewhere) beginning in about 1990 without any change in the labels, thus continuing the now meaningless 'Made byRattray' and 'Made for Rattray' duality. Further, the country of origin for the German made Rattray was not included on the label (in the US only it was on a removable tab on the bottom of the tin).

Thus for Rattray tobaccos it is impossible to determine from the label alone who was the blender or when or where the tin was blended.

But if you largely disregard the label and look at the tin top and bottom you will do just fine:

• if the 'pop top' tin top is plain, the tin dates to the 1990's and was blended on the Continent;

• 'if the 'pop top' tin top has pictorial opening instructions and there is a "Made for Rattray" label Robert McConnell of England was the blender and the tin dates to the 1970's -1980s;

• if the 'pop top' tin top has text only opening instructions and there is a "Made by Rattray label it dates to the 1970's and was blended by Rattray of Scotland; and

• if the 'pop top' tin top has pictorial opening instructions and there is a "Made by Rattray" label the tin dates either to the 1970's and was blended by Rattray in Scotland, if it has a silver tinted bottom, or to the 1980's and was blended by McConnell in England, if the tin has a gold tinted bottom.

The problem with the last category of tins however, is that it is extremely difficult to determine whether you are looking at a silver or a gold tinted tin bottom unless you have one of the other for comparison (and do not believe any one that tells you they can do it without a comparison tin). For comparison purposes you can safely use either a Rattray's 'pop top' with text only instructions on the top, which tin will only have a silver bottom or, more readily findable, a tin with pictorial instructions on the top and a 'made forRattray' label, which tin will only have a gold bottom.

In short:

Plain top (either a "for" or "by" label & either a gold or silver bottom) ---------------- Europe/'90s

Picture top / gold bottom / "by" label ------------------------- England (McConnell)/'80s

Picture top / gold bottom / "for" label ----------------- England (McConnell)/'70s - '80s

Picture top / silver bottom / "by" label ---------------------------- Scotland (Rattray) /'70s

Text only top / silver bottom / "by" label ----------------------- Scotland (Rattray) /'70s.

© 1999 John C. Loring

These older tins turn up from time to time on this vintage tobacco site:


I hope that this helps.
 
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Mrs. Pickles

Can't Leave
May 8, 2022
381
1,674
AZ, USA
I realized I didn’t clarify in the post. I wanted to know first what these tins looked like from the 70s or before. Specifically the straight Virginias.

Then I was planning on posting an iso for one but I realize I don’t have enough points to post one.
Are you in search of the early inspiration behind McClelland by chance?

I think I remember Mary McNiel saying in an interview that the old Rattray is what Carl Ehwa and her wanted to emulate when they launched McC in the 70s.
 

Mury

Starting to Get Obsessed
May 31, 2025
142
302
In terms of label design they looked pretty much the same as they do now.


From an article about dating Rattray's tins authored by John Loring:
Rattray

More mistakes are made in dating Rattray tobacco tins than with any other brand. The key is to generally disregard the label and look at the tin itself.

Rattray was a Scottish tobacconist who closed up shop in about 1980 but whose highly regarded pipe tobacco blends continue to the present day. Up to about 1970 all Rattray tobacco was blended by Rattray and came in tall thin 4 ounce 'knife lid' (or briefly in the 1960's in 4 ounce 'lever') tins. These tins were all labeled 'Made by Rattray'. [For reasons unknown the Highland Targe label has never been imprinted either 'Made by' or 'Made for' and dating of this blend has to be done by the tin top and bottom alone.] It is generally thought that Rattray continued blending all of its blends for another ten years and then, in 1980, turned them over to Robert McConnell, a fine English blender. However, based on a conversation related by Irwin Friedman with a former Rattray employee and which I find, with some modification, collaborated by the packaging, it appears rather that in about 1970 Rattray turned over the blending of some of its blends intended for the United States to McConnell. McConnel labeled the tins it blended 'Made forRattray'. Rattray continued to blend itself the tins intended for the English and European markets, as well as all the blends of lesser demand, which tins were labeled, as in the past, 'Made by Rattray'.

When Rattray closed its doors in 1980 McConnell took over the blending of all the Rattray labeled tobacco, but did not change the labeling, thus after 1980 some McConnell blended tins were labeled 'Made for Rattray' while others also blended by McConnell were nonetheless labeled 'Made by Rattray'. McConnell blended in England through the 1980s but shifted production to Germany (and later elsewhere) beginning in about 1990 without any change in the labels, thus continuing the now meaningless 'Made byRattray' and 'Made for Rattray' duality. Further, the country of origin for the German made Rattray was not included on the label (in the US only it was on a removable tab on the bottom of the tin).

Thus for Rattray tobaccos it is impossible to determine from the label alone who was the blender or when or where the tin was blended.

But if you largely disregard the label and look at the tin top and bottom you will do just fine:

• if the 'pop top' tin top is plain, the tin dates to the 1990's and was blended on the Continent;

• 'if the 'pop top' tin top has pictorial opening instructions and there is a "Made for Rattray" label Robert McConnell of England was the blender and the tin dates to the 1970's -1980s;

• if the 'pop top' tin top has text only opening instructions and there is a "Made by Rattray label it dates to the 1970's and was blended by Rattray of Scotland; and

• if the 'pop top' tin top has pictorial opening instructions and there is a "Made by Rattray" label the tin dates either to the 1970's and was blended by Rattray in Scotland, if it has a silver tinted bottom, or to the 1980's and was blended by McConnell in England, if the tin has a gold tinted bottom.

The problem with the last category of tins however, is that it is extremely difficult to determine whether you are looking at a silver or a gold tinted tin bottom unless you have one of the other for comparison (and do not believe any one that tells you they can do it without a comparison tin). For comparison purposes you can safely use either a Rattray's 'pop top' with text only instructions on the top, which tin will only have a silver bottom or, more readily findable, a tin with pictorial instructions on the top and a 'made forRattray' label, which tin will only have a gold bottom.

In short:

Plain top (either a "for" or "by" label & either a gold or silver bottom) ---------------- Europe/'90s

Picture top / gold bottom / "by" label ------------------------- England (McConnell)/'80s

Picture top / gold bottom / "for" label ----------------- England (McConnell)/'70s - '80s

Picture top / silver bottom / "by" label ---------------------------- Scotland (Rattray) /'70s

Text only top / silver bottom / "by" label ----------------------- Scotland (Rattray) /'70s.

© 1999 John C. Loring

These older tins turn up from time to time on this vintage tobacco site:


I hope that this helps.
This helps a lot! Thank you!

I also know Steve at pipestud and given quite a bit of my business to him. I haven’t seen the 70s Straight Va Rattrays or the McConnells come through this year.
 
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Mury

Starting to Get Obsessed
May 31, 2025
142
302
Are you in search of the early inspiration behind McClelland by chance?

I think I remember Mary McNiel saying in an interview that the old Rattray is what Carl Ehwa and her wanted to emulate when they launched McC in the 70s.
Yes! Big part of the reason I do! Do you know where I can find that interview? Also, I Just wanted to see the influence. I’m dying to get my hands on a 70s tin of the Rattray straight VAs.

On the same token i’d like to aquire a 70s tin of McConnell.
 
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suamrai61

Lurker
Jun 25, 2023
20
42
China
Yes! Big part of the reason I do! Do you know where I can find that interview? Also, I Just wanted to see the influence. I’m dying to get my hands on a 70s tin of the Rattray straight VAs.

On the same token i’d like to aquire a 70s tin of McConnell.
PipesMagazine Radio Show actually did several podcast episodes with Mike & Mary years ago. In episode 334, at 38:20, Mary mentioned this. I’m not sure if there are any other sources. You can find the radio show right at the top of the forum.
 

Mury

Starting to Get Obsessed
May 31, 2025
142
302
PipesMagazine Radio Show actually did several podcast episodes with Mike & Mary years ago. In episode 334, at 38:20, Mary mentioned this. I’m not sure if there are any other sources. You can find the radio show right at the top of the forum.
wow nice I will take a look thank you so much!!
 
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