Charatan Question

[Ryan]

Im

This is brilliant! And stunning, as the quotation says. So may I ask Jon and any others, then, if we can use these percentages to approximate the relative rankings of these various Charatans levels? So, in descending order:

Supreme
Selected
Distinction
Executive (usually above Distinction in many online sources)
Belvedere
Special
Relief
Was "Perfection" gone by the second half of the Lane Era? How about the multi-level After Hours?

BTW did my two photos come through? From my previous post? I think not, so I will try again.

I’m not a Charatan expert, but I do know Special ranks above Belvedere. I guess they were just fortunate to get more Specials?

 

[jguss]

I was generalizing a bit; it's impossible to be precise since each model has variants at differing price points (size etc) and the production percentages given blur those distinctions. Plus of course it's fair to assume that the inherent characteristics of the briar block (as well as orders in hand, to be cynical but candid) had an impact on what was actually produced. Having said that the ascending order is indicative of pricing and the differentials not hugely significant. Bear in mind that production doesn't have to move in lockstep with price points, only more or less follow it.

But to expound on the cynical point made above any serious collector knows that consistency in nomenclature at many if not all pipe manufacturers can be notoriously variable. Wherever possible (or frankly required) a more expensive pipe would be miraculously produced and stamped accordingly if at all plausible (and not infrequently stamped accordingly whether plausible or not). As long as there are people concerned more with the label than the wine in the bottle this practice will always take place.

 

[Stonemonk]

Continuing this discussion, I have often felt that Charatan labels demonstrate a certain arbitrariness to one pipe receiving any of the top four reasonably discoverable designations, from "Distinction" through "Supreme." One thing I didn't see in the great Ken Barnes interview collection is any discussion of who was making those decisions while he worked there. What's more important to me is not so much the label but the qualities I find as I smoke it. I am interested in knowing more from people on this forum what those qualities are each of you. The first quality I sense is the added sweetness and mellowness a pipe adds to my tobacco as I smoke it. Then, the relative weight of the pipe -- the lighter for a given size, the older and drier the briar. Then I look at the art of the pipe: the pattern of the grain, the quality of the blast, the shape of the pipe. Pipes are usable art to me. Many are beautiful, and all are, to some extent, unique. What qualities do you associate with your favorite pipes? Apologies if most of you have already had this discussion many times before, but I am an isolated pipe smoker here with no pipe friends to talk to about such things. Thanks for any reflections you care to add.

 

[Lemuel Pitkin]

If you haven't done it already, you can look up CHARATAN PIPES by TAD GAGE PDF which, along with a lot of other good info, provides an in-order listing of all the Charatan grades. Also reference the Pipedia page, but Gage is better.

 

[Stonemonk]

Thank you, Lemuel. I will try to find it. I know the Pipedia article quite well and agree it's valuable.

 

[Stonemonk]

Looks like I once had the article by Tad Gage but the link I have is now blocked. Does anybody have a valid PDF or link to one they can share? Thanks in advance.

 

[Lemuel Pitkin]

Just type in CHARATAN PIPES BY TED GAGE PDF...the sight is a major pain as it keeps getting interrupted by ads you have to "skip": maybe it's posted in a friendly form elsewhere, but this is the one I found. One other problem for me is the stamping/dating data differs from data shown in articles referenced at the bottom of the Pipedia article; for instance, Gage says the FH stamp was used 1957-67, but a couple other dating guides don't mention FH at all, but say the MADE BY HAND stamp was in use during this time. There are some other things that are questionable, such as Gage stating that the DC mouthpiece was in use in the '50s, or that the pipe-making staff was made up of two men and three women...at what time period would the number of craftsmen been so small? When you start naming known names (over what period of time?) such as Barry Jones, Ken Barnes, Stan Haney, Dan Tennison, Joan (I forget her last name), Alice (ditto...but both women named in Ken's correspondence here) etc they begin to total up to a greater number. Unfortunately, when you compare Gage, Pipedia, the dating references I mentioned, and Ken's letters, you get different stories, or at least different versions (not to mention Ivy Ryan's story, which is at least entertaining). The one REAL source of info would probably have been Ken's dad, who ran the factory and implemented the stamping changes, etc. You open one door and find yourself in a room with three other doors. Good luck.

 

[jguss]

Gage says the FH stamp was used 1957-67

In the for-what-it’s-worth category from what I can tell a FH stamp in 1957 is at least feasible. See this listing of Charatan models from the 1958 edition of the RTDA almanac:



The 1957 edition makes no mention of free hand models but of course the 1958 almanac was issued mid year.

 

[Stonemonk]

Thank you Lemuel. I will do my best to make sense of it all. I have been down in these caves for a few days now but have to come to ground soon. Cheers

 

[Stonemonk]

In the for-what-it’s-worth category from what I can tell a FH stamp in 1957 is at least feasible. See this listing of Charatan models from the 1958 edition of the RTDA almanac:

View attachment 393229

The 1957 edition makes no mention of free hand models but of course the 1958 almanac was issued mid year.

Thanks for this. It's so interesting. Sorry, but what is the RTDA almanac? This is so interesting because of the expansion of models compared to the 1951 catalogue. It also differs from the "Choose a Charatan" ad on Pipedia, which is undated but must be a bit later because it's added the "Supreme S 200" and "Coronation." Also there are increases at many price points below the Supreme-S 100: Supreme S from $60-90; Supreme: $40-70; Selected: $30-50; Executive: $35-40. So, I would guess the ad is from about 1960. Does anyone know for sure?

 

[Stonemonk]

Just type in CHARATAN PIPES BY TED GAGE PDF...the sight is a major pain as it keeps getting interrupted by ads you have to "skip": maybe it's posted in a friendly form elsewhere, but this is the one I found. One other problem for me is the stamping/dating data differs from data shown in articles referenced at the bottom of the Pipedia article; for instance, Gage says the FH stamp was used 1957-67, but a couple other dating guides don't mention FH at all, but say the MADE BY HAND stamp was in use during this time. There are some other things that are questionable, such as Gage stating that the DC mouthpiece was in use in the '50s, or that the pipe-making staff was made up of two men and three women...at what time period would the number of craftsmen been so small? When you start naming known names (over what period of time?) such as Barry Jones, Ken Barnes, Stan Haney, Dan Tennison, Joan (I forget her last name), Alice (ditto...but both women named in Ken's correspondence here) etc they begin to total up to a greater number. Unfortunately, when you compare Gage, Pipedia, the dating references I mentioned, and Ken's letters, you get different stories, or at least different versions (not to mention Ivy Ryan's story, which is at least entertaining). The one REAL source of info would probably have been Ken's dad, who ran the factory and implemented the stamping changes, etc. You open one door and find yourself in a room with three other doors. Good luck.

Thanks, Lemuel, I found and printed a copy.

 

[sablebrush52]

In the for-what-it’s-worth category from what I can tell a FH stamp in 1957 is at least feasible. See this listing of Charatan models from the 1958 edition of the RTDA almanac:

View attachment 393229

The 1957 edition makes no mention of free hand models but of course the 1958 almanac was issued mid year.

I wonder what a free hand was in 1957, since Ken stated that Barry Jones carved the first one in 1959 as an experiment. Ken owned that pipe.
I realize that this seems like a silly question, but pipe nomenclature can be less than exact. I’m reminded of the 1917 entry for a Barling Niblick, which we know was a sandblast in the 1930’s, but have no evidence for what a 1917 Niblick was.

 

[sablebrush52]

Thanks for this. It's so interesting. Sorry, but what is the RTDA almanac? This is so interesting because of the expansion of models compared to the 1951 catalogue. It also differs from the "Choose a Charatan" ad on Pipedia, which is undated but must be a bit later because it's added the "Supreme S 200" and "Coronation." Also there are increases at many price points below the Supreme-S 100: Supreme S from $60-90; Supreme: $40-70; Selected: $30-50; Executive: $35-40. So, I would guess the ad is from about 1960. Does anyone know for sure?

You’re correct that these higher grades are later, the 1960’s being a reasonable guess. Advertisements often provide a more exact timeline.


A case in point would be when Sasieni started using Town Names. It was previously thought that Town Names started around 1928. Then I noticed the use of Town Names in the 1924 Rapport Sasieni catalog and Jon found advertisements for Town Names dating to the fall of 1923.

 

[Lemuel Pitkin]

Yeah, I wonder too...could the Free Hand models signify models that deviated from their numbered shape chart even slightly? (I'm thinking Ken's "First Freehand" of 1959 might have been something extreme, like the cup and saucer). It couldn't differentiate between hand and machine made as Charatan couldn't machine-make anything until Lane bought out Ben Wade.

 

[Lemuel Pitkin]

HalR, the Retail Tobacco Dealers of America was an association that put on the once-a-year trade show and was a representative of sorts (altho not a lobbying group) for the trade. They published a monthly trade magazine (The Tobacconist) and once a year, before the national trade show, put out a hefty catalog listing all the importers and companies selling goods at the show. For example, you could look up Lane Limited, find out they were located at booth @145, a listing of their reps working the show (usually made up of their road salesmen and women), and what they offered. The details of what they offered were defined by the company...they might simply list Pipe Tobacco, Pipes, Cigarettes and so on, or might give a pretty detailed listing such as Lane listing the names of all their blends, everything in their lines of pipes, etc. The trade shows were always in NYC until the '80s when NY just got too expensive,,,then the show would move around to cities like Chicago, Dallas, New Orleans, San Francisco, etc. Sometime early in this century the name RTDA changed to something else (I don't know what), and may not even exist anymore.

 

[Lemuel Pitkin]

After sleeping on it, a bit of a correction: the RTDA Almanac was the annual directory, full of full-color ads and alphabetized listing of all the members (wholesalers/importers) with addresses, phone numbers and rosters of the wares each member carried, in whatever detail they provided for publication. Just before the RTDA show The Tobacconist published a special issue that listed participants with booth numbers, staff, and wares. Probably irrelevant to Hal's question, but I might as well be accurate if I can be. (I HOPE I'm accurate this time...it's been at least 20 years since I've seen an Almanac, and probably 30 since I've seem the show issue Tobacconist.)

 

[jguss]

Sometime early in this century the name RTDA changed to something else (I don't know what), and may not even exist anymore

Yes, the Retail Tobacco Dealers of America (RTDA) was founded in 1933. In 2007 it changed its name to the entirely forgettable International Premium Cigar and Pipe Retailers (IPCPR). In 2019 it changed its name again to the mercifully briefer Premium Cigar Association (PCA), but which it is still known today.

Here is the cover of an early RTDA almanac: from the Spring of 1939:

 

[jguss]

I wonder what a free hand was in 1957, since Ken stated that Barry Jones carved the first one in 1959 as an experiment. Ken owned that pipe.

This is the hornets nest I was trying to avoid. Free hand is a somewhat elastic term, but no matter how it's defined I believe there's little doubt Charatan was doing free hands long before Barry came along.

 

[bayareabriar]

This is the hornets nest I was trying to avoid. Free hand is a somewhat elastic term, but no matter how it's defined I believe there's little doubt Charatan was doing free hands long before Barry came along.

I’ve been really trying to understand Charatan Dating the last few years and this thread has really helped a lot. I really appreciate the knowledge you guys share. I also learned a thing or 2 about the Sasieni town name dating.

This one I’m guessing is a 1955-1962?

 

[Lemuel Pitkin]

Hah! I have the brother to your pipe, also an Executive, and also with the #4 on the bottom. I've had three or four Charatans with this marking, and one with a #3. I assume this is a size indication, but different from the sizing of the Relief, Belvedere,Special lines (here we go again!) Your date guess sounds in line with mine, but we could both be wrong. Anyway, this numbering in the bottom of the higher grades makes one more indication of date of manufacture...if only we knew what it meant. I also wonder (looking at my Charatans of different dates) just when the Extra Large stamp came into play (I think this was a Herman Lane invention) and when they began doing a machined rough top on some of their pipes, another date-indicator. And of course I'm still puzzled by the FH stamp, which appears to be used concurrently with the MADE BY HAND stamp...how was it determined which of those two stamps to use? I have only one FH, and it has a DC stem, which would indicate that the FHs did run past '65 and maybe to the '67 date in some sources, but when did it begin? I've seen dates back to the '40s from some sources.(I thought I was about done with this thread, but you dragged me back in!)