Charatan Experts--What Do I Have?

[hoppes]

EDIT: Fixed Capitalization in Title (See Rule 9) - Bob

Bought this from a gentleman in England. Was advertised as a pipe coming from Fredk Tranter, The Pipe Shop, Bath but was also marked as a Charatan's Make "Free Hand Relief." It does not have a Lane stamp and seems to be an older Charatan. I realize that several pipe makers created pipes for Fredl Tranter but usually didn't mark their own name on the pipe. Searching various sites don't seem to indicate when the Free hand relief models started or ended. Any help or suggestions would be valuable. Should be fascinating to restore. Quite a unique shape and finish. Will add pictures when done. Thanks, Hoppes

 

[ssjones]

That's awesome! Looks like a variation on the "Countryman" shape. I've never seen a Countryman with a straight stem.

 

[mikestanley]

The pipe, to me, has the look of what Charatan called a "rough". An apprentice made pipe that was combination blasted and carved. Maybe that's why the stem isn't bent.
Mike S.

 

[ssjones]

The pipe, to me, has the look of what Charatan called a "rough". An apprentice made pipe that was combination blasted and carved. Maybe that's why the stem isn't bent.
Mike S.

I've also read that about Chartans and apprentice pipes. I had heard that the Countryman shape, which is carved, sandblasted and smooth was used for that purpose. However, at a Richmond show, Charatan expert, Dennis Conga told me that it was not true.

 

[donjgiles]

I believe the apprentice pipes were stamped as Mountbatten.
I just received my first, a lovely large Canadian and I am very impressed with the quality of this pipe.

 

[oldgeezersmoker]

I believe the apprentice pipes were stamped as Mountbatten.
I just received my first, a lovely large Canadian and I am very impressed with the quality of this pipe.

I have never been convinced that all Mountbatten labeled pipes were “apprentice” pipes. Maybe some are. I actively collected Charatans in the 1980’s and 1990’s, often in competition with Dennis Congo’s, and the phrase “apprentice pipes” was never in my vocabulary

I used to own a few. All were first quality, free from fills, with good stem work. The only shortcomings I can recall were unattractive grain patterns, with perhaps more bald spots than you would see on a pipe with the Charatan label. I recently acquired a Mountbatten that is a dead ringer for a 4148 that would easily pass for a 1970’s vintage Charatan Belvedere. For less than $50 for a piece in excellent restored condition, I am very pleased with it.

 

[donjgiles]

I have never been convinced that all Mountbatten labeled pipes were “apprentice” pipes. Maybe some are. I actively collected Charatans in the 1980’s and 1990’s, often in competition with Dennis Congo’s, and the phrase “apprentice pipes” was never in my vocabulary.

You are certainly much more knowledgeable on this subject than I. Always looking to learn more. Thank you for your reply!

 

[oldgeezersmoker]

You are certainly much more knowledgeable on this subject than I. Always looking to learn more. Thank you for your reply!

Don, there has been a ton of research on Charatan since my days as an active collector , so I can only comment on what used to be “known”. In addition, we have the benefit of @kenbarnes who has shared lots of information about the pre Dunhill Charatan era.

 

[donjgiles]

Don, there has been a ton of research on Charatan since my days as an active collector , so I can only comment on what used to be “known”. In addition, we have the benefit of @kenbarnes who has shared lots of information about the pre Dunhill Charatan era.

Yes Sir, very true indeed.
I would love to hear what Ken has to say on this subject. If anyone would know, it would be Mr. Barnes!

 

[mikestanley]

Here is an example of a Rough. Doesn’t show in my horrid photo but it is front “x” out pipe era of pipes Dunhill sold after they took over. Sold them at a discount w/o warranty is what I understand. No DC bit, I rescued it from a local shop probably close to 20 years ago.
Mike S.

 

[kenbarnes]

Here is an example of a Rough. Doesn’t show in my horrid photo but it is front “x” out pipe era of pipes Dunhill sold after they took over. Sold them at a discount w/o warranty is what I understand. No DC bit, I rescued it from a local shop probably close to 20 years ago.
Mike S.

I think that this Charatan deep relief Lovat that you have here is typically from the early 1960s. The X stamp is an indicator that it is fitted with a saddle mouthpiece, unless you are saying that there are numerous Xs which cover the whole name? I would need to look at the stamping to gain a better perspective though.
As for the question of "Apprentice pieces" at Charatan, I can say that this is not the case. A new employee at the Charatan factory would start on one stage of the multitude of stages of production and after having shadowed someone who was proficient at that stage of making, he or she would start working on pipes at that stage. The four qualities of bowls produced at Charatan were graded as 1st quality was Charatan, 2nd quality was Ben Wade, 3rd quality was Mountbatten and the forth quality was Commodore. I know this because I did the grading of the bowls for a couple of months during my apprenticeship there (1975). Obviously a Mountbatten quality would be sold under numerous names and the same for the Commodore quality.
As for the straight Countryman, this is interesting because this shape (made by Dan Tennyson and Barry Jones) was very challenging to make because the neck of the bent shape was so difficult to shape. This could not be done on a sanding wheel so they made some files to be able to get in the neck without 'destroying' the formed rim of the bowl. So a straight one was far easier to make. I have never seen a stright one before and I don't know the date of this one and also it is quite rare when Charatan stamped the shop's name on their pipes.

 

[mikestanley]

I think that this Charatan deep relief Lovat that you have here is typically from the early 1960s. The X stamp is an indicator that it is fitted with a saddle mouthpiece, unless you are saying that there are numerous Xs which cover the whole name? I would need to look at the stamping to gain a better perspective though.
As for the question of "Apprentice pieces" at Charatan, I can say that this is not the case. A new employee at the Charatan factory would start on one stage of the multitude of stages of production and after having shadowed someone who was proficient at that stage of making, he or she would start working on pipes at that stage. The four qualities of bowls produced at Charatan were graded as 1st quality was Charatan, 2nd quality was Ben Wade, 3rd quality was Mountbatten and the forth quality was Commodore. I know this because I did the grading of the bowls for a couple of months during my apprenticeship there (1975). Obviously a Mountbatten quality would be sold under numerous names and the same for the Commodore quality.
As for the straight Countryman, this is interesting because this shape (made by Dan Tennyson and Barry Jones) was very challenging to make because the neck of the bent shape was so difficult to shape. This could not be done on a sanding wheel so they made some files to be able to get in the neck without 'destroying' the formed rim of the bowl. So a straight one was far easier to make. I have never seen a stright one before and I don't know the date of this one and also it is quite rare when Charatan stamped the shop's name on their pipes.

The photo is horrible. The entire "Charatan's Make is x'd over, as is whatever is directly under that. I've relied on Ivy Ryan's writing from the (after these comments, supposed conversations with Charatan carvers). Doesn't sound as if that can be counted on, based on what you've said. Thank you for the information.
Mike S.

 

[Saintwilliam]

Charatan has got to be the coolest pipe makers in England.

was there ever any Italian influence in their story. They strike me as more Italian than Danish in the design...

 

[donjgiles]

Thank you Mr. Barnes!
The definitive answer to a long standing rumor. I love this board!

 

[pappymac]

I think that this Charatan deep relief Lovat that you have here is typically from the early 1960s. The X stamp is an indicator that it is fitted with a saddle mouthpiece, unless you are saying that there are numerous Xs which cover the whole name? I would need to look at the stamping to gain a better perspective though.
As for the question of "Apprentice pieces" at Charatan, I can say that this is not the case. A new employee at the Charatan factory would start on one stage of the multitude of stages of production and after having shadowed someone who was proficient at that stage of making, he or she would start working on pipes at that stage. The four qualities of bowls produced at Charatan were graded as 1st quality was Charatan, 2nd quality was Ben Wade, 3rd quality was Mountbatten and the forth quality was Commodore. I know this because I did the grading of the bowls for a couple of months during my apprenticeship there (1975). Obviously a Mountbatten quality would be sold under numerous names and the same for the Commodore quality.
As for the straight Countryman, this is interesting because this shape (made by Dan Tennyson and Barry Jones) was very challenging to make because the neck of the bent shape was so difficult to shape. This could not be done on a sanding wheel so they made some files to be able to get in the neck without 'destroying' the formed rim of the bowl. So a straight one was far easier to make. I have never seen a stright one before and I don't know the date of this one and also it is quite rare when Charatan stamped the shop's name on their pipes.

Ken,
How rare was it for Charatan Make pipe to not get a shape number stamped on it? I am working on a Charatan Make Executive and it doesn't have a shape number. Executive is stamped under London England on the left side of the shank. The right side is stamped "Made by Hand".

 

[pappymac]

This is the stamping on a 317DC I'm working on. Is your's X'ed out the same?

 

[JimInks]

I think that this Charatan deep relief Lovat that you have here is typically from the early 1960s. The X stamp is an indicator that it is fitted with a saddle mouthpiece, unless you are saying that there are numerous Xs which cover the whole name? I would need to look at the stamping to gain a better perspective though.
As for the question of "Apprentice pieces" at Charatan, I can say that this is not the case. A new employee at the Charatan factory would start on one stage of the multitude of stages of production and after having shadowed someone who was proficient at that stage of making, he or she would start working on pipes at that stage. The four qualities of bowls produced at Charatan were graded as 1st quality was Charatan, 2nd quality was Ben Wade, 3rd quality was Mountbatten and the forth quality was Commodore. I know this because I did the grading of the bowls for a couple of months during my apprenticeship there (1975). Obviously a Mountbatten quality would be sold under numerous names and the same for the Commodore quality.
As for the straight Countryman, this is interesting because this shape (made by Dan Tennyson and Barry Jones) was very challenging to make because the neck of the bent shape was so difficult to shape. This could not be done on a sanding wheel so they made some files to be able to get in the neck without 'destroying' the formed rim of the bowl. So a straight one was far easier to make. I have never seen a stright one before and I don't know the date of this one and also it is quite rare when Charatan stamped the shop's name on their pipes.

This is world class information. Thanks, Ken.

 

[hoppes]

Thanks everyone for the comments and great history. One of my main questions though is still out there and that is when did Charatan start the Free Hand Relief models and where did they fall in the quality line? I have seen several sites that list the FHR models as the lowest of the Charatan line. All the Countryman pipes I have been able to find all have smooth finish on the rim and chamber top. This one appears to have the rim and top rusticated/sandblasted.
I am trying to query Frederick Tranter--now Havana House-to see if they have any records about this pipe.
My final question is what to do about the chamber rim. I have removed all the carbon and cleaned up the rim but it has obviously been trashed. Should I top the pipe severely shortening it, try to repair it with pipe dust, etc, or leave it alone since it is part of its history and use?? What say you all? Thanks, Hoppes
Here are some pics after initial cleaning:

 

[pappymac]

Thanks everyone for the comments and great history. One of my main questions though is still out there and that is when did Charatan start the Free Hand Relief models and where did they fall in the quality line? I have seen several sites that list the FHR models as the lowest of the Charatan line. All the Countryman pipes I have been able to find all have smooth finish on the rim and chamber top. This one appears to have the rim and top rusticated/sandblasted.
I am trying to query Frederick Tranter--now Havana House-to see if they have any records about this pipe.
My final question is what to do about the chamber rim. I have removed all the carbon and cleaned up the rim but it has obviously been trashed. Should I top the pipe severely shortening it, try to repair it with pipe dust, etc, or leave it alone since it is part of its history and use?? What say you all? Thanks, Hoppes
Here are some pics after initial cleaning:
View attachment 20640
View attachment 20641
View attachment 20642
View attachment 20643

Personally, I'd leave it as is. It adds character and doesn't really affect how it smokes.

 

[cigrmaster]

I would get in touch with George and see what he thinks. He is the maven of pipe restorers and is world renowned. Legend has it that George is the master and there is no one in his league.