Can We Talk About Water Glass (Sodium Silicate)?

[monty55]

I'll make this as short as possible.

I have read many threads and some articles that describe the use of Sodium Silicate as a bowl coating, or for repairing bowls used as a pipe mud.

I even bought a bottle of it several years ago but have been hesitant to ever use it.

As a scientist, I was very curious about it when I first read about using it mixed with ash and activated charcoal to form a pipe mud.

On the surface it sounded great, but then I did more research about sodium silicate.

The interesting thing about Sodium Silicate is that it is 100% soluble in water but add heat and dry it out and it's like glass, has a crystalline structure, and here's the part nobody mentions ... until you add water again, then it becomes soluble again, until you heat it up and dry it out again... and so on and so on. From my understanding it doesn't just turn to glass once, but rather can be rehydrated, at least when it's used in the form we are talking about.

So, that leads to the question - how much "water" is in pipe "moisture" while smoking a bowl?

And is it enough to cause the sodium silicate to start to rehydrate?

And if that's the case, as you smoke down the bowl and put fire to the tobacco and the mud heats back up, the water is driven off creating the glass again, but the water driven off is now in the form of a sodium silicate water vapor, mixed with the tobacco smoke, and going into your lungs. Which could explain why some people have said they notice an acrid taste when smoking a bowl, after this has been applied.

Does any of this sound plausible, or correct, or am I not understanding sodium silicate?
If I am correct, this would be a very unhealthy substance to put in our pipes.
If I am wrong, just carry on...

An inorganic Chemist chiming in would be most helpful! @OSOBUCO

 

[mingc]

I'll make this as short as possible.

I have read many threads and some articles that describe the use of Sodium Silicate as a bowl coating, or for repairing bowls used as a pipe mud.

I even bought a bottle of it several years ago but have been hesitant to ever use it.

As a scientist, I was very curious about it when I first read about using it mixed with ash and activated charcoal to form a pipe mud.

On the surface it sounded great, but then I did more research about sodium silicate.

The interesting thing about Sodium Silicate is that it is 100% soluble in water but add heat and dry it out and it's like glass, has a crystalline structure, and here's the part nobody mentions ... until you add water again, then it becomes soluble again, until you heat it up and dry it out again... and so on and so on. From my understanding it doesn't just turn to glass once, but rather can be rehydrated, at least when it's used in the form we are talking about.

So, that leads to the question - how much "water" is in pipe "moisture" while smoking a bowl?

And is it enough to cause the sodium silicate to start to rehydrate?

And if that's the case, as you smoke down the bowl and put fire to the tobacco and the mud heats back up, the water is driven off creating the glass again, but the water driven off is now in the form of a sodium silicate water vapor, mixed with the tobacco smoke, and going into your lungs. Which could explain why some people have said they notice an acrid taste when smoking a bowl, after this has been applied.

Does any of this sound plausible, or correct, or am I not understanding sodium silicate?
If I am correct, this would be a very unhealthy substance to put in our pipes.
If I am wrong, just carry on...

An inorganic Chemist chiming in would be most helpful! @OSOBUCO

Don't inhale.

 

[sablebrush52]

I'll make this as short as possible.

I have read many threads and some articles that describe the use of Sodium Silicate as a bowl coating, or for repairing bowls used as a pipe mud.

I even bought a bottle of it several years ago but have been hesitant to ever use it.

As a scientist, I was very curious about it when I first read about using it mixed with ash and activated charcoal to form a pipe mud.

On the surface it sounded great, but then I did more research about sodium silicate.

The interesting thing about Sodium Silicate is that it is 100% soluble in water but add heat and dry it out and it's like glass, has a crystalline structure, and here's the part nobody mentions ... until you add water again, then it becomes soluble again, until you heat it up and dry it out again... and so on and so on. From my understanding it doesn't just turn to glass once, but rather can be rehydrated, at least when it's used in the form we are talking about.

So, that leads to the question - how much "water" is in pipe "moisture" while smoking a bowl?

And is it enough to cause the sodium silicate to start to rehydrate?

And if that's the case, as you smoke down the bowl and put fire to the tobacco and the mud heats back up, the water is driven off creating the glass again, but the water driven off is now in the form of a sodium silicate water vapor, mixed with the tobacco smoke, and going into your lungs. Which could explain why some people have said they notice an acrid taste when smoking a bowl, after this has been applied.

Does any of this sound plausible, or correct, or am I not understanding sodium silicate?
If I am correct, this would be a very unhealthy substance to put in our pipes.
If I am wrong, just carry on...

An inorganic Chemist chiming in would be most helpful! @OSOBUCO

That's a good question. Don't forget that the patch gets covered over with charcoal pretty quickly. Given that the internal temperature of a chamber can reach 800˚, I doubt there's much hydration going on. But, still a good question. George Dibos has a video on how to use silicate as a patch.

 

[AJL67]

So, that leads to the question - how much "water" is in pipe "moisture" while smoking a bowl?

Seems that goes back to tobacco type, aros soaked in PG would be high as hell, straight virginias that are super dry very little. I smoke a lot of VAs and rarely get more than a tiny tiny bit of moisture.

Try it and see? heh

 

[monty55]

That's a good question. Don't forget that the patch gets covered over with charcoal pretty quickly. Given that the internal temperature of a chamber can reach 800˚, I doubt there's much hydration going on. But, still a good question. George Dibos has a video on how to use silicate as a patch.

Yes, I was thinking more about initial smokes and with regards to the bottom third of the bowl, where a lot of pipe repairs take place. It seems to me that the bottom of the bowl would have a high moisture content, i.e. water.

And what about those who use the warm water method of pipe bowl refreshing? That's a whole lot more than pipe moisture. What does that do to a patch or a coating that has sodium silicate in it with repect to rehydration followed by further water being driven back off through smoking a bowl afterwards. I'm talking about bowls without a thick cake obviously.

 

[monty55]

Don't inhale.

This is so damn funny, because I don't inhale, and I forgot that point, and my entire issue with it is now mute!

Problem solved, well done!

I'll just go have another drink

 

[OSOBUCO]

An inorganic Chemist chiming in would be most helpful! @OSOBUCO

Haha. Indeed. Unfortunately I am an organic chemist. Not much help here.

 

[monty55]

Haha. Indeed. Unfortunately I am an organic chemist. Not much help here.

Well shit

ding ding ... round two .. Bartender!

 

[Wet Dottle]

The water glass function is in bonding the carbon. You can replace it with other agents, if you're not comfortable with it. Of course, if you are concerned about inhaling it into your lungs, you should know that there are other things in the smoke that probably are much worse...

 

[aspiring_sage]

My bowls tend to have quite a bit of moisture.
That coating would make me nervous about retrohaling.

 

[sablebrush52]

Yes, I was thinking more about initial smokes and with regards to the bottom third of the bowl, where a lot of pipe repairs take place. It seems to me that the bottom of the bowl would have a high moisture content, i.e. water.

And what about those who use the warm water method of pipe bowl refreshing? That's a whole lot more than pipe moisture. What does that do to a patch or a coating that has sodium silicate in it with repect to rehydration followed by further water being driven back off through smoking a bowl afterwards. I'm talking about bowls without a thick cake obviously.

I don't use the water flush method on the few pipes that have been treated with silicate. Briar has a fair amount of silicate content in it. That's par of why it resists burning up.

 

[georged]

This is a good example of theory versus reality... i.e. both sides of the (implied) argument are "right".

Yes, the hardened form of water glass does "re-dissolve" in water, but VERY slowly. Not fast enough to mean anything in a practical sense (it is used to seal car radiators from the inside, for example, which is about as hot and wet an environment as you're likely to find).

Dissolve from being exposed for a few minutes to a few micrograms of steam produced by a tobacco pipe? No worries. It's been used for decades by pipe makers and repairmen with no problems of any kind.

 

[monty55]

I don't use the water flush method on the few pipes that have been treated with silicate.

This is interesting. Why did you choose not to water flush these?

 

[monty55]

This is a good example of theory versus reality... i.e. both sides of the (implied) argument are "right".

Yes, the hardened form of water glass does "re-dissolve" in water, but VERY slowly. Not fast enough to mean anything in a practical sense (it is used to seal car radiators from the inside, for example, which is about as hot and wet an environment as you're likely to find).

Dissolve from being exposed for a few minutes to a few micrograms of steam produced by a tobacco pipe? No worries. It's been used for decades by pipe makers and repairmen with no problems of any kind.

Understood.
I thought maybe the amount of water just wasn't present long enough to make a difference.
So I guess this rules out water flushing these pipes?

 

[sablebrush52]

This is interesting. Why did you choose not to water flush these?

Because it's a material that I'm not completely familiar with, so I revert to a method that I know won't interact with it. All other pipes I clean with a water flush.

 

[mso489]

Though you may not inhale pipe smoke, you do breathe some of it. I don't know as I would want "glass" in any iteration in the vicinity of my lungs if I could help it.

There may be logical scientific reasons why it is perfectly fine, but I don't want to run the experiment on myself or anyone else.

I don't know why you would want to add a coating. Many of us wish the pipe makers wouldn't use the coatings they use, and it is always a big plus when I buy a pipe that comes without a coating, trusting me to smoke it correctly and not start a burn-out process.

So my input is ... don't do it, don't use it.

If you tend to get burn-outs in your pipes, you probably need to work on your technique since you are smoking way too hot and puffing way too much.

 

[bullet08]

I'm sure it's safe. However, when doubt, don't use it. It's like Korean Red Ginseng. They say it's good for you. I don't buy into all that eastern medicine crap. Give good old synthetic chemical from behind the counter.

 

[UB 40]

You don’t have to be a chemist to get some information. Wikipedia on the properties of water glass: “The drying of an aqueous solution of water glass begins with the evaporation of water and is followed by the formation of water-insoluble
silica
(silicification). The silicification of water glass is irreversible, i.e., the addition of water to the silica does not produce water glass again.“

I used it once to seal a concrete floor. After drying up I polished the surface to high gloss. And still after the usual floor wipe its hard and shiny.

Here is another read on the topic: Natrium silicate - https://web.archive.org/web/20120117182533/http://apps.kemi.se/flodessok/floden/kemamne_eng/natriumsilikater_eng.htm

 

[jdowney]

This is a pretty cool material, I had never heard of it before, and initially I was pretty skeptical that there was a water soluble silicate at all (formerly a geologist - silicates are generally not soluble in water unless under high pressure and temperature). Watched a few vids and molten lye is the thing that would do it. All sorts of weird stuff happens at the ends of the pH scale.

This was a very useful thread to read - I was just digging out some of my old pipes inherited from a grandfather and lamenting the nice little meerschaum with a pin hole at the bottom of the bowl. Years of too vigorous cleaning I guess. I think I have nothing much to lose trying a bit of sodium silicate solution and diatomaceous earth to make a fire-clay like putty. Might try some dry clay too if I can find some without buying 50 lbs. Going to be some fun experiments - so glad I saw this thread last month, been thinking about it ever since.

 

[georged]

I think I have nothing much to lose trying a bit of sodium silicate solution and diatomaceous earth to make a fire-clay like putty. Might try some dry clay too if I can find some without buying 50 lbs. Going to be some fun experiments - so glad I saw this thread last month, been thinking about it ever since.

Powdered pumice for the win:

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