Bright, Yellow, Lemon Virginias - Differences?

[shermnatman]

After years of being a "Burley Man" - Yes, I think that looks funny in-print too - I am now getting into the contributions and merits of "VIRGINIAS" into my blending experiments.

Because Burley was always my Base Tobacco of choice, I never paid much attention to Virginia specs beyond "Red" or "Bright" as an occasional Semi-Base component; however, as I am now shopping for a bulk purchase of various Virginias to add to my Mixing Cabinet, I am now being faced with terms of Non-Red Virginia bulk/blending offerings using such names as: Yellow Virginia, Bright Virginia, and even Lemon Virginia.

Would some kindly Brother who is a knowledgeable "Virginia Man" share their understanding of the specific difference between: Bright, Yellow, and Lemon - if any; or, are these just supplier-preferred marketing terms which describe essentially the same leaf from the same part of the stalk?

Thanks. - Sherm Natman

 

[PipeIT]

The only thing I know, as told by Jim, is that Brights bite more.

 

[anotherbob]

it gets even more complicated when you consider that each and every tobacco tastes different even if it's the same "type". The only acceptable answer is experiment.

 

[jvnshr]

After years of being a "Burley Man" - Yes, I think that looks funny in-print too - I am now getting into the contributions and merits of "VIRGINIAS" into my blending experiments.

Because Burley was always my Base Tobacco of choice, I never paid much attention to Virginia specs beyond "Red" or "Bright" as an occasional Semi-Base component; however, as I am now shopping for a bulk purchase of various Virginias to add to my Mixing Cabinet, I am now being faced with terms of Non-Red Virginia bulk/blending offerings using such names as: Yellow Virginia, Bright Virginia, and even Lemon Virginia.

Would some kindly Brother who is a knowledgeable "Virginia Man" share their understanding of the specific difference between: Bright, Yellow, and Lemon - if any; or, are these just supplier-preferred marketing terms which describe essentially the same leaf from the same part of the stalk?

Thanks. - Sherm Natman

Basically it is flue-cured tobacco or bright-leaf tobacco or as we call it Virginia. The longer you cure it, the darker gets the color of the leaf. From farmer's point of view, it is just flue-cured tobacco, from marketing point of view it may be bright, yellow, lemon, gold, etc.

 

[shermnatman]

Basically it is flue-cured tobacco or bright-leaf tobacco or as we call it Virginia. The longer you cure it, the darker gets the color of the leaf. From farmer's point of view, it is just flue-cured tobacco, from marketing point of view it may be bright, yellow, lemon, gold, etc.

Thanks @jvnshr. So your understanding is that regardless whether a grower/distributor calls it Bright, Yellow, Lemon, or, Golden, etc, it is the same varietal, culled from the same part of the stalk, and the color is merely used as a marketing name which reflects the relative richness of the color of that same leaf due to reaction of the sugars and cure time in the barn - and, there would no specific difference between any of these "names" except for the relative sugar-level as reflected by depth of color?

Am I understanding properly how you understand the situation to be? - Sherm Natman

 

[yanoJL]

There's a short video on YouTube with Per Jensen (MacBaren) talking about Virginias. He's standing in front of 4 pallets of different Virginia leaves, explaining the difference in colors, curing and uses for the ones on display.

At the end of the video, he gestures toward the expanse of the warehouse and says that these are just 4 of the 190 different varietals he has on hand for blending. And that's just Virginias!

Here's a link to the video if you're interested:

 

[shermnatman]

There's a short video on YouTube with Per Jensen (MacBaren) talking about Virginias. He's standing in front of 4 pallets of different Virginia leaves, explaining the difference in colors, curing and uses for the ones on display.

At the end of the video, he gestures toward the expanse of the warehouse and says that these are just 4 of the 190 different varietals he has on hand for blending. And that's just Virginias!

Here's a link to the video if you're interested:

@yanoJL - That was excellent, and I thank you for responding with that very informative video; however, I am trying to clear up the confusion is specifically in regard to what what man from MacBaren calls: Yellow Filler Virginia; and where I am trying to learn if these other names - Bright, Golden, Lemon, ect - are only marketing-names of Yellow Filler Virginia, OR, are the name other than Yellow, indicating the "Flavor Tobacco Virginia", which is next in line.

One small clue was that the man said that the Yellow Filler Virginia had no flavor, except for a hay-like presentation.

Of course, I do not know; but, it seems to me - especially as the MacBaron man, called the Yellow Filler VIrginia different from the darker 'Flavor' Virginia, the very dark Black Steam Cured Virgina, and that of the Original Air-Cured Virginia - being at the beginning of the line.

At this point, I am wondering at what point does a flue-cured Yellow 'Filler' flavorless Virginia become a flue-cured 'Flavor' Virginia - AND, is that where names other than Yellow come into the picture.....???

Thanks again, very helpful... absolutely clears-up what "Yellow" is and is not; but, still trying to get a handle on the specific differences of Bright, Golden, and Lemon, ect. - Sherm Natman

 

[jvnshr]

It is a broad topic but I will try to explain as much as I can. Flue-curing is a method in which you apply heat indirectly to the tobacco leaf and dry it, while preserving the sugars inside the leaf. Tobaccos cured by this method are called flue-cured variety, although technically speaking it is not a variety (but class of tobacco varieties). You may just take the same leaf and air-cure it. However just for the sake of the argument, let's stick to the industry standards.

There are many varieties that can be flue-cured: Virginia Gold, Virginia Brightleaf, Big Gem, etc. Colors such as yellow, orange, mahogany, red is related to the stalk position. Simply said, if you flue-cure lower stalk of a flue-cured variety the leaf will produce yellow color, if you flue-cure upper stalk, you will get red colored leaf. So the color description does not necessarily reference the variety. Lemon Virginia on the other hand may be flue-cured Lemon Virginia tobacco from Canada or Lemon Virginia pipe tobacco by Lane Limited (which includes Virginia and Burley).

 

[TheWhale13]

My guess is that if it is not named for some specific variety of tobacco, then all these "color" names (like yellow, bronze etc.) are just lingo used by whatever organisation is using them. It seems that tobacco names are used quite arbitrarily, and are not standardised in any way really.

 

[jvnshr]

At this point, I am wondering at what point does a flue-cured Yellow 'Filler' flavorless Virginia become a flue-cured 'Flavor' Virginia - AND, is that where names other than Yellow come into the picture.....???

"Flavorless" Virginia won't become "Flavor" Virginia, at least via curing process. That yellow "flavorless" Virginias are coming from lower stalks of the plant, "Flavor" Virginias on the other hand are ripe leaves from upper stalks with more sugar and nicotine content.

 

[jvnshr]

My guess is that if it is not named for some specific variety of tobacco, then all these "color" names (like yellow, bronze etc.) are just lingo used by whatever organisation is using them. It seems that tobacco names are used quite arbitrarily, and are not standardised in any way really.

Farm Products Grades and Sales Act
Loi sur le classement et la vente des produits agricoles

R.R.O. 1990, REGULATION 374

FLUE-CURED TOBACCO

Note: This Regulation was revoked on January 1, 2011. See: O. Reg. 387/10, ss. 1, 2.

Last amendment: O. Reg. 387/10.

This Regulation is made in English only.

1. In this Regulation,

“crude” means,

(a) hard, slick, extremely immature or firekilled, and

(b) black or green in colour;

“grader” means a grader appointed to grade tobacco;

“green tolerance”, when expressed as a figure, means the maximum percentage of a tobacco leaf that can be green in colour for the tobacco leaf to meet the requirements for the grade;

“injury” means damage that detracts from the appearance or usability of tobacco leaves, but does not include waste;

“maturity” means degree of ripeness;

“tobacco” means unmanufactured flue-cured tobacco produced in Ontario;

“uniformity”, when expressed as a figure, means the percentage of tobacco leaves that meet the minimum colour intensity, leaf structure, leaf development, maturity, width and length requirements for a particular grade;

“variegated” means mottled grey in colour;

“waste” means unusable due to excessive damage. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 374, s. 1.

2. Tobacco is designated as a farm product. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 374, s. 2.

3. No person shall,

(a) sell or deliver for sale to a first buyer thereof; or

(b) buy from the producer thereof,

tobacco unless a grader has graded it and it has been marked with a grade established by this Regulation. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 374, s. 3.

4. Where tobacco is graded, the grader shall examine the tobacco in as many bales of a lot as are necessary to determine the grade of all the tobacco in the lot and shall have affixed to a bale a tag or label under the Act on which is legibly marked the grade of the tobacco. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 374, s. 4.

5. (1) Tobacco does not qualify for a grade if it is damaged by mould after being cured, is damaged by smoke or soot at any time or contains bits of broken tobacco leaves and stems resulting from handling.

(2) Despite subsection (1), bits of broken tobacco leaves and stems free from foreign material may be graded as scrap and so marked. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 374, s. 5.

6. The grade factors for tobacco leaves are plant position group, colour, colour intensity, leaf structure, leaf development, maturity, width, length, green tolerance, uniformity, injury and waste and crude. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 374, s. 6.

7. The plant position groups for tobacco and the symbols therefor are,

(a) lugs (X), consisting of the leaves nearest the ground on a tobacco plant;

(b) cutters (C), consisting of the leaves above the lugs and below the cutter leaf;

(c) cutter leaf (H), consisting of the leaves in the mid to upper part of a tobacco plant;

(d) leaf (B), consisting of the leaves in the upper part of a tobacco plant; and

(e) tips (T), consisting of the leaves at the top of a tobacco plant. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 374, s. 7.

8. The colour symbols in the grades for tobacco and the meaning of such symbols are,

(a) L, meaning lemon;

(b) O, meaning light to medium orange;

(c) M, meaning medium orange to mahogany;

(d) F, meaning dusky tan;

(e) R, meaning reddish;

(f) V, meaning that at least 20 per cent of the leaves are variegated;

(g) VL, meaning variegated lemon;

(h) VF, meaning variegated dusky tan;

(i) A, meaning green on the butt of a leaf;

(j) G, meaning lemon to light orange to medium orange to mahogany to dusky tan with green on the lamina of a leaf;

(k) GL, meaning lemon to light orange to medium orange with green on parts of the leaf other than the butt;

(l) GF, meaning medium orange to mahogany to dusky tan with green on parts of the leaf other than the butt;

(m) K, meaning that at least 50 per cent of the leaves are grey; and

(n) CR, meaning cherry red. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 374, s. 8.

9. The colour intensity classifications for tobacco are,

(a) deep;

(b) strong;

(c) moderate;

(d) weak; and

(e) pale. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 374, s. 9.

10. The leaf structure classifications for tobacco are,

(a) open;

(b) firm;

(c) close;

(d) tight; and

(e) slick. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 374, s. 10.

11. The leaf development classifications for tobacco of each plant position group are,

(a) fleshy;

(b) medium fleshy;

(c) medium;

(d) thin; and

(e) skinny. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 374, s. 11.

12. The maturity classifications for tobacco are,

(a) very ripe;

(b) ripe;

(c) medium mature;

(d) slightly immature; and

(e) immature. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 374, s. 12.
...

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Javan has done an excellent job of explaining… and the taste of each is based on many factors. Even how the tobacconist has processed it changes flavor. Twists, flakes, ribbon, cased, heated, so forth and so forth… changes the flavors.
So, a “lemon” or “yellow” or “gold” can taste different from one blend to the next also.
So varietals, cure, color cure, grade, and process can make a “yellow” taste one of many different flavors. And, the same for all of the different ones you mentioned in the OP.

This is why I sort of chuckle when I see someone say that blend X is basically the same as blend Y by the same company because they use the same tobaccos in the marketing description. It is probably not. So many factors…

This is also why a tobacconist’s job for a large company is so difficult. They have to source and taste each tobacco and make it similar or as close to the same as the original when making new batches of an existing blend. You can’t just use a recipe as if the “yellow” or “red” is going to taste the exact same in the blend.

 

[Ahi Ka]

If you like pictures

Cigarette Tobaccos

Whole leaf tobacco offers a wide variety of Cigarette tobaccos such as Flue-cured Virginia, Dark Air Cured, Burley & Lemon Virginia to fit your needs.

wholeleaftobacco.com

 

[AJL67]

Seems that it's like marketing each company is going to use slightly different terms and names for things, @JimInks reviews have helped me because you can learn based on tobacco and blender, you have to sort it all out.

 

[mso489]

Wow, I'd have to study that Regulation 374. I think some differences in Virginias are varietal, others are from picking the leaves at various heights on the stem at various stages of development, and others are differences in curing and processing. A degree in agriculture, specializing in the tobacco plant, might be required to fully understand all this. This dispels the notion of farmers as simple folk. Their brains are just seized up with detail and tracking weather.

 

[shermnatman]

Farm Products Grades and Sales Act
Loi sur le classement et la vente des produits agricoles

R.R.O. 1990, REGULATION 374

FLUE-CURED TOBACCO

...

That was AWESOME and a HUGE HELP!!

I loved the part about the distinct names of the various parts of the stalk from which the leaf is specifically picked - that alone cleared up some other Catalog-Copy confusion.

I put in a call to one of the product engineers at a company which offers a straight 'Bright Virginia' AND also a straight 'Yellow Virginia'. I shall be very interested to learn what he has to say the difference between these two individually listed catalog items are; and, what performance properties each offers.

Again, thanks for that AMAZINGLY helpful post of the Farming Classification Regulations and Definitions.

I think you just won the 'Briar Brother of the Year' award! - Sherm Natman

AH HA!!!! HERE WE GO...

From the link which Brother @Ahi Ka provided.... "Lemon is harvested “pulled” from the second stalk position and possesses a slightly heavier body than cutters with excellent burn quality and moderate flavor qualities."

THE 'LEMON' MYSTERY IS SOLVED!!!

Another fantastic post contribution! - Sherm Natman

 

[anotherbob]

There's a short video on YouTube with Per Jensen (MacBaren) talking about Virginias. He's standing in front of 4 pallets of different Virginia leaves, explaining the difference in colors, curing and uses for the ones on display.

At the end of the video, he gestures toward the expanse of the warehouse and says that these are just 4 of the 190 different varietals he has on hand for blending. And that's just Virginias!

Here's a link to the video if you're interested:

or in other words. The descriptions tells you something about a blend, but not all that much.

 

[shermnatman]

If you like pictures

Cigarette Tobaccos

Whole leaf tobacco offers a wide variety of Cigarette tobaccos such as Flue-cured Virginia, Dark Air Cured, Burley & Lemon Virginia to fit your needs.

wholeleaftobacco.com

THE 'BRIGHT' MYSTERY NOW ALSO SOLVED!!!!

If you combine the wonderful information concerning Stalk Position which Brother @jvnshr supplied with the technical descriptions on the link which Brother @Ahi Ka supplied, we not only get but can understand the following:

"... Our Flue Cured Virginia Bright Leaf is hand-harvested and is from the center stalk position of the tobacco plant. It is exposed to more sunlight than Cutters and Lemon, resulting in a heavier body (thicker) leaf with slower burn qualities..."

This defines things very clearly.

@Ahi Ka 's citation continues "... Bright Leaf is selected from the third stalk position on the tobacco plant. It is medium-bodied, has a medium burn quality and provides a strong Virginia flavor, and also commonly used as a pipe tobacco..."

So in one place the description uses 'Center Position' and later uses 'Third Stalk Position'... So, the question now becomes is the 'Center' being 3 of 5 stalks, OR, is 'Third Stalk Position' counted from the soil UP and located somewhere around the center area of the stalk?

Either way, two things remain clear: 1) We are definitely understanding more as these mysteries are being dispelled; and, 2) There is whole bunch to learn about if one wants to enjoy this hobby beyond the pleasures of smoking.

Guys, can't thank you enough. I love learning new things and I have learned a TON today, thanks to your great posts. - Sherm Natman

 

[mso489]

My late wife worked during her teacher's summer off for Nationwide Insurance in their tobacco crop insurance office here in North Carolina. If a tobacco farmer had the means, it was a wise thing to insure the crop because one hail storm could erase the whole investment in an hour.

During the harvest, driving the backroads in the dark, you could see the harvester rigs out in the fields all lit up like steamboats, with crews seated aboard picking the leaf.

My late wife's grandfather was a tobacco farmer, and she'd worked in the fall on his farm sticking tobacco, tying bunches of leaf to sticks for hanging in the tobacco barn for curing. The season could be a big payoff or a major loss, mostly depending on the weather and also on the tobacco market.

 

[Ahi Ka]

@shermnatman I’d say 3 of 5 positions. However you’re better off looking at the distinctions used for cigar leaf to understand where the positions roughly change. With whole leaf, the ground lugs/first prime would be the very bottom row, not necessarily a 5th of the plant. Also, not all of the positions are necessarily harvested from.

And just for clarity, as mentioned earlier in the thread, “bright leaf” is the term used for the family of tobacco varieties which are generally grown to be flue cured, essentially what we know in commercially produced blends as “Virginias”.

Compare the example of bright leaf you were looking at with the 2020 hand tied stuff and you’ll see it is darker. If I was harvesting and labelling, I’d probably be using yellow/gold/orange as my terms…ok to be fair, I would just write the variety’s name and ditch the leaf position/colour altogether.

Are you looking at whole leaf for blending, or stuff already processed?