Artisans and Funky Pipe Shapes
- Thread starter chalbach72
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Holy smokes, that is quite a different looking pipe. Not something I would ever buy, but I can appreciate the artistry that went into it.
I guess what I'm trying to say that is what was once funky ain't really funky no more, it's readily accepted and easily recognized by shape, and they're not really freehands because certain parameters must be met for it to be a successful design, like the blowfish most certainly gives much more leeway for individual interpretation than a billiard but it's still gotta look like a proper blowfish...
...like I think that the Danish shapes have been standardized pretty much and now seen almost as traditional shapes.
Innovations don't come along often, but the reverse calabash certainly was one and it seemed to be immediately accepted by collectors and adopted by makers each giving their own variants, like this Asteriou:
http://www.neatpipes.com/Prodotto/chris-asteriou-reverse-calabash/&id=8677&idcategory=280
But there's another school of pipemakers you could say are the avant garde and those guys truly are funky, I mean they bring the funk inna big way, like it or lump it their visions and wild ideas add some groovy juices into the mix...
...I'm a trad guy myself, but I do appreciate the avant stuff too, especially Wallenstein, I could see myself actually owning one of his pipes.
Here's some real funk...
:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMuR6DPy-eQ
:
:
:
...like I think that the Danish shapes have been standardized pretty much and now seen almost as traditional shapes.
Innovations don't come along often, but the reverse calabash certainly was one and it seemed to be immediately accepted by collectors and adopted by makers each giving their own variants, like this Asteriou:
http://www.neatpipes.com/Prodotto/chris-asteriou-reverse-calabash/&id=8677&idcategory=280
But there's another school of pipemakers you could say are the avant garde and those guys truly are funky, I mean they bring the funk inna big way, like it or lump it their visions and wild ideas add some groovy juices into the mix...
...I'm a trad guy myself, but I do appreciate the avant stuff too, especially Wallenstein, I could see myself actually owning one of his pipes.
Here's some real funk...
:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMuR6DPy-eQ
:
:
:
*2
I would go one step further back to mention that in the 1950s or even earlier what many people think as 'traditional' would actually be not as typical. Here is an excerpt from a document "Some British Tobaccos from the Rare Old Days" written by a senior pipe smoker from the UK:
I fancy Wallenstein's work and had another post about his pipe shapes, and I mention Eltang's innovative design often, such as the dagger and the desk lamp. These are elements that make pipe smoking great.
I would go one step further back to mention that in the 1950s or even earlier what many people think as 'traditional' would actually be not as typical. Here is an excerpt from a document "Some British Tobaccos from the Rare Old Days" written by a senior pipe smoker from the UK:
So according to this writer, I would say possibly 50% of the pipe smoking forum members are not "ordinary man".
I got about halfway through this thread and Cosmic hurt my feelings. You see, I am one of those "hoodlums" over on pipemakers forum. Why is it so wrong to push your peers to better themselves??? We tell people who come to PMF to make a billiard because it is easy to critique....we all KNOW what a billiard should look like. So, don't buy one of my pipes. That's okay. But please do not besmirch my (or any of my fellow pipemakers on PMF)reputation just because you got the wrong impression of that forum FROM THE OUTSIDE!
Sorry to everyone who replied after that post. I didn't read anything after that and that makes me feel bad about me.
Sorry to everyone who replied after that post. I didn't read anything after that and that makes me feel bad about me.
I love reading PMF, although I'm from the outside looking in I appreciate all the candor which is missing from many pipe forums, and the cajoling makes it all very entertaining to read, it's like infotainment!
Alot of the stuff is inside jokes and maybe some stuff may be taken the wrong way, but that's an inherent fault of the reader if that happens
So,
IAWS22
I just did a google search of this:
i agree with rad site:pipemakersforum.com/forum
and so many great threads popped up that it would be exhausting to read, but what I did read was revelatory and totally educational.
I only occasionally browse over there, but from what small bit I've gathered has greatly enhanced my overall knowledge of what's what and has given me a better conception of things to be looking for and how to actually look at a pipe or whatever, I mean really it should be Pipemakersforum.edu because it's like a virtual university almost!
PMF has made a major impact imo on the American pipemaking scene especially and there's a whole group of carvers active there who are doing amazing work, the fact that they continue to talk about stuff on a forum open to the public is a friggin' gift in my eyes!
Almost every winner of this years KC carving contest was a PMF regular and that's saying something.
A billiard is the most difficult shape to make because our ideas are so fixed, there is no room for error, even the slightest anomaly sticks out like a sore thumb, the straight billiard is rightfully the true benchmark to tell if a pipemaker is worth his/her salt I say...
...but it's still not definitive, like someone tuned into the Brit style may not like the Italo style even if it is well executed, like Larry Roush is an acknowledged master but I don't like most his stuff because I think it leans too heavily toward classic Italian and I don't like silver adornments either, but that's all a subjective issue of my own aesthetics, even though I don't care for the pipes, I can tell they're made properly to a very high level of finishing and with a great eye toward design --- just because my preferences run along with the trad Brit school of billiards I don't discount his work.
What were we talking about?
This be too funkee!
Alot of the stuff is inside jokes and maybe some stuff may be taken the wrong way, but that's an inherent fault of the reader if that happens
So,
IAWS22
I just did a google search of this:
i agree with rad site:pipemakersforum.com/forum
and so many great threads popped up that it would be exhausting to read, but what I did read was revelatory and totally educational.
I only occasionally browse over there, but from what small bit I've gathered has greatly enhanced my overall knowledge of what's what and has given me a better conception of things to be looking for and how to actually look at a pipe or whatever, I mean really it should be Pipemakersforum.edu because it's like a virtual university almost!
PMF has made a major impact imo on the American pipemaking scene especially and there's a whole group of carvers active there who are doing amazing work, the fact that they continue to talk about stuff on a forum open to the public is a friggin' gift in my eyes!
Almost every winner of this years KC carving contest was a PMF regular and that's saying something.
A billiard is the most difficult shape to make because our ideas are so fixed, there is no room for error, even the slightest anomaly sticks out like a sore thumb, the straight billiard is rightfully the true benchmark to tell if a pipemaker is worth his/her salt I say...
...but it's still not definitive, like someone tuned into the Brit style may not like the Italo style even if it is well executed, like Larry Roush is an acknowledged master but I don't like most his stuff because I think it leans too heavily toward classic Italian and I don't like silver adornments either, but that's all a subjective issue of my own aesthetics, even though I don't care for the pipes, I can tell they're made properly to a very high level of finishing and with a great eye toward design --- just because my preferences run along with the trad Brit school of billiards I don't discount his work.
What were we talking about?
This be too funkee!
Let's face it, pipes are simple things. Once you've figured out the "engineering" all that's left is implementation, which is where the artistry comes in to play. Take out the artistry and all you have left is recreating shapes from a factory chart and the factories are already doing that better, quicker and cheaper than a guy in a workshop.
Conversely, perhaps there is no need for your average pipe smoker to pursue an artisan pipe as there are so many awesome factory pipes out there.
Conversely, perhaps there is no need for your average pipe smoker to pursue an artisan pipe as there are so many awesome factory pipes out there.
Tobacco is a simple thing too but that doesn't mean I want to smoke raw leaf all day.
If it all was as simple as getting sublime pleasure from smoking organic plant matter in an implement with two holes, why don't we all just smoke rabbit-weed from the front yard in corn cob pipes?
Of course there are many many great factory pipes out there, nobody said there wasn't, and that wasn't really the topic at hand anyways.
Good design really trips my trigger, peels my banana, floats my boat, and yanks my chain --- most pipe factories don't really strive to innovate with experimental design, an exception are a few of the French factories who put out some wild stuff, but for the most part it's usually standard issue stuff, nothing wrong with that but if that's all there was then the world would be a little less interesting.
I doubt a factory would ever come up with a design like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0pWrDlYlx4
:
I could never ever afford that pipe, but I love the hell out of it, and I greatly appreciate it's existence, and other people do too or there wouldn't be direct copies of it floating around:
HS STUDIO pipe,Reversed Mouse Calabash, ---- unsmoked
Will the HS Studio pipe smoke the same as the Geiger pipe?
I highly doubt it, because the "engineering" re: craftsmanship wouldn't be at the same high level,
but,
anything is possible,
and it may be divine,
who knows?
Although there certainly is a difference between having an original Vermeer painting and a print of the same thing.
.
If it all was as simple as getting sublime pleasure from smoking organic plant matter in an implement with two holes, why don't we all just smoke rabbit-weed from the front yard in corn cob pipes?
That's a bit of an overly reductive argument, but I get your point.
Of course there are many many great factory pipes out there, nobody said there wasn't, and that wasn't really the topic at hand anyways.
Good design really trips my trigger, peels my banana, floats my boat, and yanks my chain --- most pipe factories don't really strive to innovate with experimental design, an exception are a few of the French factories who put out some wild stuff, but for the most part it's usually standard issue stuff, nothing wrong with that but if that's all there was then the world would be a little less interesting.
I doubt a factory would ever come up with a design like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0pWrDlYlx4
:
I could never ever afford that pipe, but I love the hell out of it, and I greatly appreciate it's existence, and other people do too or there wouldn't be direct copies of it floating around:
HS STUDIO pipe,Reversed Mouse Calabash, ---- unsmoked
Will the HS Studio pipe smoke the same as the Geiger pipe?
I highly doubt it, because the "engineering" re: craftsmanship wouldn't be at the same high level,
but,
anything is possible,
and it may be divine,
who knows?
Although there certainly is a difference between having an original Vermeer painting and a print of the same thing.
.
Have heard of HS Studio for quite some time, and I remain curious and cautious. Who are crafting pipes in / for this HS Studio, and from whom do they receive training?
The look of the two pipes are similar, just from this far. So as many people can forge a seemingly alike katana to those of legendary high quality.
The look of the two pipes are similar, just from this far. So as many people can forge a seemingly alike katana to those of legendary high quality.
Menuhin - I've been wanting to get one and see how it smokes, but I have some ethical concerns also, it's a dilemma!
Here's a couple of old threads that I think are related:
http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/silver-castle-pipe
&
http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/warning-fraudster-on-ebay-selling-counterfeit-eltangs-possibly-castellos-etc
&
http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/the-benandci-fiasco-takes-another-turn
&
http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/huge-stone-aka-hukes-pipe-well-see-how-it-turns-out
..
Kind of related:
We see genius on one side and outlaw on the other.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2416808/Artificial-egg-PLANTS-backed-Bill-Gates-set-revolutionize-cooking-goes-sale-Whole-Foods.html
http://www.chinahush.com/2009/04/24/how-to-identify-fake-chicken-eggs/
I believe people are always after money and competition is always cut-throat in a piece of land with 1+ billion people.
We see genius on one side and outlaw on the other.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2416808/Artificial-egg-PLANTS-backed-Bill-Gates-set-revolutionize-cooking-goes-sale-Whole-Foods.html
http://www.chinahush.com/2009/04/24/how-to-identify-fake-chicken-eggs/
I believe people are always after money and competition is always cut-throat in a piece of land with 1+ billion people.
With so many knowledgeable insights posted, I hesitate to comment. But I have had some experience with other arts and crafts and think there are legitimate analogies.
First, one must master the craft at hand before becoming an artist with the medium. Before a musician becomes an artist, the music student practices and studies scales,chords, and rhythm; practices simple standards; consciously copies the style of other artists, and after mastering the fundamentals and exploring the literature, eventually find their own voice.
You really have to be able to play jazz standards before you can expect to communicate with free jazz. And even free jazz is/was a logical, progressive, evolutionary musical form rooted in earlier styles such as Dixieland and World music.
Likewiste, oil painters study scale, colors, perspective and other mechanics. They copy master pieces to develop technique and paint a LOT of bad paintings before they find their own style. How many of us have faked admiration for a wannabe artist acquaintence who couldn't breath spirit into their flat, lifeless attempts at painting or sculpture - weather realistic or abstract.
In a letter, Isaac Newton, wrote, "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Ironically, this quote was based on a 12th century metaphor, attributed to Bernard of Chartres: "We are dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants." Nietzsche later copped the idea for himself.
"There is nothing original - everything is derivative". That is me quoting me.
So, no matter how outlandish the pipe design, if it is functional, then the artist must share the credit with the thousands of other craftsmen and artists that went before him. Or her. I'm a chauvinist but I give credit where due. For my tastes, Anne Julie is innovative and beautifully creative without her pieces looking like artwork for a science fiction pulp magazine.
So, lets's start another thread: "When does craft become art?" 8)
First, one must master the craft at hand before becoming an artist with the medium. Before a musician becomes an artist, the music student practices and studies scales,chords, and rhythm; practices simple standards; consciously copies the style of other artists, and after mastering the fundamentals and exploring the literature, eventually find their own voice.
You really have to be able to play jazz standards before you can expect to communicate with free jazz. And even free jazz is/was a logical, progressive, evolutionary musical form rooted in earlier styles such as Dixieland and World music.
Likewiste, oil painters study scale, colors, perspective and other mechanics. They copy master pieces to develop technique and paint a LOT of bad paintings before they find their own style. How many of us have faked admiration for a wannabe artist acquaintence who couldn't breath spirit into their flat, lifeless attempts at painting or sculpture - weather realistic or abstract.
In a letter, Isaac Newton, wrote, "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Ironically, this quote was based on a 12th century metaphor, attributed to Bernard of Chartres: "We are dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants." Nietzsche later copped the idea for himself.
"There is nothing original - everything is derivative". That is me quoting me.
So, no matter how outlandish the pipe design, if it is functional, then the artist must share the credit with the thousands of other craftsmen and artists that went before him. Or her. I'm a chauvinist but I give credit where due. For my tastes, Anne Julie is innovative and beautifully creative without her pieces looking like artwork for a science fiction pulp magazine.
So, lets's start another thread: "When does craft become art?" 8)
Great contribution Brass!
:clap:
Well said.
"The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new."
― Samuel Beckett
Murphy
"Nihil novi sub sole."
- Old Testament Book of Ecclesiastes
one of my favorite musics!
:P
To improv on Dewey Redman,
everythings in the sight of the seebeing,
in the thought of the bethinker...
:
:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJMuj5VEX6c
:clap:
Well said.
"The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new."
― Samuel Beckett
Murphy
"Nihil novi sub sole."
- Old Testament Book of Ecclesiastes
I am so stoked to see a freejazz reference here,
one of my favorite musics!
:P
To improv on Dewey Redman,
everythings in the sight of the seebeing,
in the thought of the bethinker...
:
:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJMuj5VEX6c
Thankyou misterlowercase. :worship:
Dewey Redman is a terrific example. He played in a high school marching band with Ornette Coleman in the fifties. He taught music to elementary school students. He could blow standards and ballads as sweet as Ben Webster or Getz or Young. He played piano for Keith Jarret and collaborated with Pat Metheny.
He commanded the basics and the literature and could swing with anyone. If you listen closely to Redman or any good free jazz, you still hear mostly the standard chords, the licks, the progressions and the rhythms you hear in bebop, blues or hell, even country. The surprising dissonance and alteration of the expected depends on the fundamentals still being present - or at least anticipated. That's why the free jazz he plays is music and the wannabees posers who haven't paid their dues play cacophonous clamor.
Even the listener must have spent some time hearingthe antecedents of free jazz before they can realistically expect to appreciate the form.
Bringing us back to pipes. You must know and understand what a Calabash pipe is and looks like before you can appreciate a Reverse Calabash fully.
BTW, the Keith Jarret video that follows in your clip is freaking awesome.
Dewey Redman is a terrific example. He played in a high school marching band with Ornette Coleman in the fifties. He taught music to elementary school students. He could blow standards and ballads as sweet as Ben Webster or Getz or Young. He played piano for Keith Jarret and collaborated with Pat Metheny.
He commanded the basics and the literature and could swing with anyone. If you listen closely to Redman or any good free jazz, you still hear mostly the standard chords, the licks, the progressions and the rhythms you hear in bebop, blues or hell, even country. The surprising dissonance and alteration of the expected depends on the fundamentals still being present - or at least anticipated. That's why the free jazz he plays is music and the wannabees posers who haven't paid their dues play cacophonous clamor.
Even the listener must have spent some time hearingthe antecedents of free jazz before they can realistically expect to appreciate the form.
Bringing us back to pipes. You must know and understand what a Calabash pipe is and looks like before you can appreciate a Reverse Calabash fully.
BTW, the Keith Jarret video that follows in your clip is freaking awesome.
Free Jazz is amazing music. I don't view Freehand pipes as analogous to Free Jazz, though. I suppose one could see analogies between pipes and Architecture, but a building is constrained by the need to be functional in its use, whereas some Freehand pipes look to be pipes only in the sense that they have a tobacco chamber and an airway. Functionally, they appear impractical, if not absurd.
WOW!! This thread blew up quite unexpectedly!
I certainly have an appreciation for interesting and unique shapes, but like others mentioned, I like the symmetry. I don't like the oddly carved pipes that some artisans are putting out. Personally, I don't like the fan either. Almost seems lazy to me :lol:
Keep up the comments, I'm loving reading this! It makes for quite the good study break in the middle of my freshman finals!
I certainly have an appreciation for interesting and unique shapes, but like others mentioned, I like the symmetry. I don't like the oddly carved pipes that some artisans are putting out. Personally, I don't like the fan either. Almost seems lazy to me :lol:
Keep up the comments, I'm loving reading this! It makes for quite the good study break in the middle of my freshman finals!
Carvers show how the basic idea of a form can be manipulated until the result, although smokeable and identifiable as belonging to the class of things deemed pipes, is somewhere along the continuum between idiosyncratic to utterly unique. The creative such as Rolando Negoita and the late Paulo Becker carve idiosyncratically while Tom Eltang's desk lamp, above, is utterly unique, calling attention to itself by being totally outside-the-box.
Other art forms do the same, and jazz comes to mind. These musicians take a melody through their selective improvisations/permutations, often to the point where it's relationship to the original seems quite lost, more related to the preceding or subsequent phrases than anything else. Joni Mitchell teamed with Charlie Mingus, taking his ideas into her tunes, at times beyond his comfort zone. He told her "you can't do that" but she did it anyway, producing the brilliant "Mitchell/Mingus."
In the end it would seem to be how much variation on classical shapes appeals to you. In another life I'd own a half-dozen Beckers and would have topped world records for the rapidity with which I laid the plastic down. My answer to the question is to some extent.
Other art forms do the same, and jazz comes to mind. These musicians take a melody through their selective improvisations/permutations, often to the point where it's relationship to the original seems quite lost, more related to the preceding or subsequent phrases than anything else. Joni Mitchell teamed with Charlie Mingus, taking his ideas into her tunes, at times beyond his comfort zone. He told her "you can't do that" but she did it anyway, producing the brilliant "Mitchell/Mingus."
In the end it would seem to be how much variation on classical shapes appeals to you. In another life I'd own a half-dozen Beckers and would have topped world records for the rapidity with which I laid the plastic down. My answer to the question is to some extent.
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