Another Cellaring Question

[logs]

Of course whole leaf is probably a lot more stable than cut and blended leaf...

 

[shanez]

How do the big producers handle aged tobacco? They have bags of old leaf, some of it much older than 10 years and yet it doesn't turn to dust.

Of course whole leaf is probably a lot more stable than cut and blended leaf...

I would assume it has a lot to do with toppings, casings, etc. Raw tobacco, when properly kept, can easily last decades. There are cigars out there from the 60's and before that are smoking well.

 

[Worknman]

It’s whatever you want to do.

I put exactly 3.5oz into each of my jars, because once aged ten years or so, it deteriorates to shitdust once open if I don’t smoke it within a few weeks. And, 3.5oz is all I want of a blend before I get bored with it or have time to smoke. Ribbons are more packed than the flakes and drier tobaccos are more packed than the more wet tobaccos. YMMV

If thats the case I need to rearrange my cellar. I have whole pounds stored away in individual jars.

 

[jaytex1969]

Space, both within and outside the jars, is at a premium for me. I pack it like a Civil War soldier ramming down the cannon load.

Check back on this post in 10 years to see if I'm bitching or bragging.....

 

[Rebub24]

Some really helpful and good information I got from a friend about cellaring, anaerobic and aerobic fermentation:

Cellaring is relatively straight-forward once you understand what processes are taking place. Cellaring takes advantage of fermentation, and there are two types of fermentation- aerobic (in the presence of oxygen) and anaerobic (in the absence of oxygen). Anaerobic fermentation is what everyone is looking for. The reason for this is that, in the absence of oxygen, the microbes present will begin to consume the sugar present in the blend, which is why Virginia tobaccos (which are high in sugar) are the best candidates for aging, and Burley tobaccos (which are low in sugar) don't age as dramatically. Both, however, will definitely benefit from aging.

When you first jar (or tin) a tobacco, aerobic fermentation takes place until all the oxygen is depleted, at which point anaerobic fermentation begins (which is why you'll often hear people recommend that you fill a jar as tightly as possible to eliminate as much air as possible, but I don't think it's that important). Most people are of the opinion that peak anaerobic fermentation happens around 10-15 years, but my personal opinion is that most of the biggest changes happen within the first ten (that's when you'll see your tobacco has darkened considerably, the evidence of the changes). The reason for this is the law of diminishing returns- like aging wine or cheese (which both use the same process), the biggest changes happen within the first five years or so, and the degree of change starts diminishing from there. After twenty years or so, the degree of change becomes somewhat negligible (unless you have a highly refined palette).

Can you dip into your jar during that period? Absolutely, but aerobic fermentation will begin again until the oxygen is again depleted (at which point anaerobic fermentation returns). Is that a bad thing? I don't think so. Will it change the end result? It certainly will, but I suspect you won't notice the difference unless, again, you have a highly refined palette. The only real issue is that it will stretch out the timeline to peak fermentation.

 

[Magpiety]

Obviously you get more in a jar if you compress the hell out of it. But on the flip side, it can be hard getting it back out when it comes time to smoke, months or years later. I've noticed ribbon cuts sometimes break up into small confetti-like particles when overpacked. For me, that's reason enough to try to avoid forcing too much into a jar.

I've been trying to do it by weight, to avoid this issue while still having some uniformity to the jars. It seems like 50g can fit snugly in a jar without being compressed too tightly, but 56g (2oz) has to be crammed in there to the point where this confetti effect happens. My "fix" is to open the 2oz tubs and smoke a few bowls over a day or two before packing it in the jars.

 

[Magpiety]

Can you dip into your jar during that period? Absolutely, but aerobic fermentation will begin again until the oxygen is again depleted (at which point anaerobic fermentation returns). Is that a bad thing? I don't think so. Will it change the end result? It certainly will, but I suspect you won't notice the difference unless, again, you have a highly refined palette. The only real issue is that it will stretch out the timeline to peak fermentation.

This is why I pack 1lb of tobacco into 9 smaller jars. I can take one out to open and smoke without having an effect on the others, and it gives an interesting opportunity to test different ages side by side.

 

[anotherbob]

How tobacco ages seems to be a bit of a mystery. Apparently theres aerobic AND anaerobic fermentation but thats about all anyone seems to know. I dont understand why we get university experiments with shrimp on treadmills yet theres no scientific consensus on the best way to age pipe tobacco after all these years. The tins from the manufacturer seem to be packed fairly tight so I dont see where it would hurt. Who knows

because no one is really putting up money to find out these things about tobacco. It really wouldn't benefit anyone all that much. You know unlike using a treadmill to observe changes caused in crustaceans due to acidification of the ocean, you know something that could actually devastate both an industry and dinner too. Now we'd love to know so maybe figure out how to hire scientists and take up a collection to further the art of pipe smoking.

 

[Magpiety]

it deteriorates to shitdust

Winds of shit are blowin'

 

[cosmicfolklore]

How do the big producers handle aged tobacco? They have bags of old leaf, some of it much older than 10 years and yet it doesn't turn to dust.

Help me out here... While I was talking about tobacco older than just ten years, I can't think of a blender that makes things out of ten year old leaf.

Even so, even ten year old tobaccos lose a little of it's umph after being opened for a couple of weeks... or I have lost interest in it. I have planned this 3.5 oz thing after many times opening an over packed jar. You may pack your jars as full or as large as you want. I do what my experience has shown me to be the best way for me.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Of course whole leaf is probably a lot more stable than cut and blended leaf...

Yes, whole leaf can last much longer, but I am still wondering who is blending ten year old leaf. I'd be seriously interested to try it.

 

[briarbuck]

Some really helpful and good information I got from a friend about cellaring, anaerobic and aerobic fermentation:

Cellaring is relatively straight-forward once you understand what processes are taking place. Cellaring takes advantage of fermentation, and there are two types of fermentation- aerobic (in the presence of oxygen) and anaerobic (in the absence of oxygen). Anaerobic fermentation is what everyone is looking for. The reason for this is that, in the absence of oxygen, the microbes present will begin to consume the sugar present in the blend, which is why Virginia tobaccos (which are high in sugar) are the best candidates for aging, and Burley tobaccos (which are low in sugar) don't age as dramatically. Both, however, will definitely benefit from aging.

When you first jar (or tin) a tobacco, aerobic fermentation takes place until all the oxygen is depleted, at which point anaerobic fermentation begins (which is why you'll often hear people recommend that you fill a jar as tightly as possible to eliminate as much air as possible, but I don't think it's that important). Most people are of the opinion that peak anaerobic fermentation happens around 10-15 years, but my personal opinion is that most of the biggest changes happen within the first ten (that's when you'll see your tobacco has darkened considerably, the evidence of the changes). The reason for this is the law of diminishing returns- like aging wine or cheese (which both use the same process), the biggest changes happen within the first five years or so, and the degree of change starts diminishing from there. After twenty years or so, the degree of change becomes somewhat negligible (unless you have a highly refined palette).

Can you dip into your jar during that period? Absolutely, but aerobic fermentation will begin again until the oxygen is again depleted (at which point anaerobic fermentation returns). Is that a bad thing? I don't think so. Will it change the end result? It certainly will, but I suspect you won't notice the difference unless, again, you have a highly refined palette. The only real issue is that it will stretch out the timeline to peak fermentation.

Excellent. It sounds like stuffing the jar with the most tobacco could in fact speed up the anaerobic process.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Excellent. It sounds like stuffing the jar with the most tobacco could in fact speed up the anaerobic process.

Actually, it can also be argued and supported that having a lot more oxygen to get the enzymes off to a good start increases aging. Since being on here and hearing this debate go on and on for years, I am of the impression that it doesn't really matter. No one really knows what is going on inside the jars. There is only research in the cigarette industry, and none in the pipe tobacco industry.

 

[woodsroad]

I've been meaning to run a test to see what happens if you flush jars with CO2 before filling with tobacco (and then again before sealing). It should jump-start anaerobic activity.

Does anyone have a spare anaerobic hood hanging around?

 

[BROBS]