Accelerated Aging?

[davek]

A couple of thoughts. Aging in jars I think is a fermentation process to at least an extent. When you age tobacco you have grown you often just hang it or stack it in boxes and you *want* it to go in and out of case and be exposed to warmer temps. It's a slower "fermentation" than kilning or stacking. You may very well have aged that tobacco more effectively by exposing it to ambient humidity changes. If there's no mold, just try it. That's how your going to find out.
As to the glass. I wouldn't worry about that a bit. It's inert and doesn't burn. Pick an old pipe or buy a cob or whatever butters your biscuit and put a pot smokers screen in it. Then put a few bigger pieces in the bottom of some you haven't "sullied", load the top up and go. I wouldn't think you'd get any particles. Just watch your fingers loading.
As to heating tobacco, my guess is that any temp below what a kiln might provide might accelerate aging, below about 120f. Stoving is usually done at much higher temps.

 

[lordofthepiperings]

There have been at least two people who have posted about successfully storing tobacco 10 years or longer in Mylar bags.

There's a big difference in storing tobacco and aging tobacco. People use glass jars to age tobacco, because as far as I know glass is less porous (possibly even non-porous, I don't have a degree in science so I wouldn't know) compared to plastics, so you can leave some air in the jar that's required for the aging process and the leaf won't dry out at all. I recently learned this myself because I had some blends I stored in plastic jars six years ago and now they're getting dried out more than I'd like, because the plastic is porous and has let air in even though there's a rubber seal on the lid with a locked hinge. I've never really seen anyone mention how porous the Mylar bags are compared to glass, but I've also never seen anyone mention that they age their tobaccos in Mylar. Storing, yeah I've heard of some people doing that, but not aging.

 

[sparroa]

Sorry for dogpiling you there, transpose. I see now that you actually never said anything about smoking them - just that you couldn't bring yourself to throw them away. My bad...
Anyways, here's the Gospel of GLP again, from the link that Sable shared.
Q: What's the best way to store tobacco for aging?
A: Ideally, tobacco should be left in its original sealed tin, and stored in a cool, dry place. It's important to realize that storage in plastic bags and the like, while allowing the tobacco to "meld," will prevent the true aging process. Plastic bags are permeable to small molecules. (Water, while not a very large molecule, is polarized, and has a hard time penetrating the barrier formed by the plastic.) If you can smell the contents through the bag, you're losing flavor and aroma! Mason jars, bail-top jars and so on are good candidates for long term storage, as long as you can resist the urge to open them to "check up" on what's happening. Aging tobacco must be left alone, with no gas exchange allowed. Once an aged tin is open, the contents should either be smoked relatively quickly, or transferred to a jar with a good seal.
Q: What about vacuum sealing?
A: Vacuum sealing is great for vegetables and coffee, but is pointless for tobacco. Tobacco needs some air to be locked in with it , at least to begin with, in order for it to age. A perfectly vacuum sealed container will likely keep the tobacco "fresh," but it may not really age the way we expect it to. I'm more than a little suspicious about the heavy plastic "bags" used by most of these machines. They hold moisture in just fine, but they really don't prevent gas exchange, and I'm not sure they're truly able to stand the test of time. Tins are best. Jars are a close second. The special high barrier bags we used for a while for our 8oz packaging have several layers, each designed to be impenetrable to a different sort of molecule. I've conducted extended tests with this material, and am satisified that the tobacco will age nearly, if not as well as in the tins, at least for the short term. They are only slightly evacuted to facilitate packing and sealing. For best long-term aging, though, I still recommend tins.

 

[sablebrush52]

I age in glass or the tins, having encased the tins in 7 mill food storage grade Mylar that's been heat sealed. It's interesting that many report improvement in Esoterica blends that have been in their Mylar bags for years and years. I think though, that heavy duty Mylar is a different animal from a baggie, which some folks think is fine for holding tobacco for months.
I'm going to assume that any material that is rated to be good enough for long term food storage and has gathered more than a half century of proven results is going to be fine for tobacco storage. Keep in mind that not all Mylar is exactly the same, metalizing of the surface renders it nearly impermeable and heavier grades are laminates of metalized surfaces increasing their impermeability and thus fit for long term food storage. Keep in mind that if it's not heat sealed, the contents will dry out over time.
As for aging, if it was good enough for Germain's and Pease, it's good enough for me.

 

[bigpond]

These flakes seemed to age twice as fast as my jarred FVF. For those who have a lot of experience with aging, is this expected? Should I be opening up my cellared jars every now and then?

Ime aging FVF in jars isn’t consistent with your dry aged sample. It darkens, but not to the same level over the same period of time.
Absent fact opinions rule and on this front there is much. I would think that if you want to mature a blend you would do expose it to air and account for humidity in some fashion. If you want to keep it as consistent as possible while allowing for time to do it’s thing you would squish it down hard in glass.
I regularly open aging jars to air but I smoke a lot of soggy English tobacco and studied oneology at university so I’m likely not to be trusted.

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

Ziplock bags are made of polyethylene (PE) which have an oxygen permeability of 6k - 15k ml O2/(day-mil-sq. meter-atm). Mylar's rating is 50 - 100, several order of magnitudes better.
Reference https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/does-mylar-provide-a-secure-seal.786636/

I ordered some 1 and 5 gallon Mylar bags as well. To be on the safe side, I'm going to some amount of my tins and tobacco stored in smaller mylar bags and seal them in these large bags. In other words, double seal them. I'll be doing this for stuff I am planning on letting age for over 10 years. If that doesn't work, I guess I'll be smoking dried out and/or moldy tobacco down the road.
I tried Google searches for the permeability of a mason jar and couldn't find any scientific data. I assume a perfectly sealed mason jar has a lower permeability rating than a Mylar bag. However, given the low rating for Mylar, it doesn't seem the difference would matter much if at all. When I consider all the advantages offered by Mylar, it's a no brainer for me.

 

[davek]

I would thing that, due to mold issues at least, you would always age as the experts do. But the OP might have lucked out and have some tobacco just as good, or even better, in this case.

 

[kola]

I have to strongly disagree with Greg Pease. Leaving any tobacco in it's original tin is a risk..and in some cases a very high risk. I'm a little stunned by his comment. For good reason.
He wrote that way back in 2007. I wonder if he still feels the same.
Mylar does sound like a good option but I've always used mason jars and had great success. I like the ol' skool' look of stacked mason jars as well.

 

[jeff540]

Before finding this forum and becoming a member, I only knew that keeping pipe tobacco in a controlled humidity environment allowed it to improve with time. I did this with cigars way back, and would keep some favorites for a few years while they slightly bloomed.
I used canning jars (mason) because they were on hand. I savor some of my favorite blends and don't smoke them often, Balkan Flake being the primary example. I still have a few ribbons left from a half pound I purchased 6 or 7 years ago, and it is now jet black with crystals interspersed just like OPs photo. This was in quart jar with increasing headspace over the last few years. I smoke them on special occasions, as I will now do with my remaining McClelland flakes.
Long story short, my experience is aerobic aging does not differ much from anaerobic (vacuum) provided moisture levels are held reasonably constant.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I have to strongly disagree with Greg Pease. Leaving any tobacco in it's original tin is a risk..and in some cases a very high risk. I'm a little stunned by his comment. For good reason.

Keep in mind that there is a phenomena that all of our sponsors are aware of that forum members themselves are not. And, that is that when an anomaly occurs, as in a tin losing its seal, that it get amplified in reposting, making one or two occurrences look like a regular issue. As in the mold issue with C&D. The actual reported instances of mold with C&D during the mold scare of 2017 was below the anticipated reports of mold that C&D expects for any new blend. However, the few instances that occurred out of the thousands of tins that were sold, happened across social medias and different forums, and amplified the illusion that it was happening much more frequently that it was actually occurring. The same is true of tins with broken seals.

And, what Greg means is that if you buy a tin with a year of age on it, and jar it, you are creating an atmosphere that is less predictable, and no longer can it be claimed to have (however many) years of age on it. It may actually be 10 years old, but it is not the same as expected from opening a 10 year old tin.

 

[sablebrush52]

Keep in mind that there is a phenomena that all of our sponsors are aware of that forum members themselves are not. And, that is that when an anomaly occurs, as in a tin losing its seal, that it get amplified in reposting, making one or two occurrences look like a regular issue.

Except that 60% of my old Pease tins were shot to hell. And others have been reporting the same problem. Also, reports of Pease tins failing, as well as others have been posted on forums for many years. So not 1 or 2 instances.

And, what Greg means is that if you buy a tin with a year of age on it, and jar it, you are creating an atmosphere that is less predictable, and no longer can it be claimed to have (however many) years of age on it. It may actually be 10 years old, but it is not the same as expected from opening a 10 year old tin.

Not what Greg said. What he did say is that opening a tin affects the current aging conditions in the tin. Aging will continue, but it may be different than if the tin was left undisturbed. There's no implication regarding predictability or expectations, or quality one way or another.
"A: This is a little tricky. Once the seal of the tin is broken, the delicate balance present in that little ecosystem is permanently altered. You can't go back! So, once that tin is open, either smoke its contents fairly quickly, or transfer it to air-tight containers, like bail-top canning jars. The aging process from this point on will be different, but the tobacco will remain in fine condition for your enjoyment as long as it's kept in good condition. "
And this refers to already aged tins.
If I have to choose between altered but fine, and mummy dust, I'll choose altered but fine.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Sable, always respectfully, I cannot argue with your count of 60% loss. If anyone else had reported a loss of 60%, I would have rolled my eyes. But, with you, I will take you at your word. But...

as well as others have been posted on forums for many years

I have to argue, (Maybe you meant it with some hyperbole?) because I have only ever seen maybe a couple of posts concerning GLP tins losing their seal, and if I remember, they were by you (your experience and a post you made about a couple of ebay posts where the tins looked rusted). I cannot recall a mass of posts concerning GLP tins losing their seal, especially further than a year back, because Greg has been responsive to all posts concerning his brand, and up until a little more than a year ago, he was very active on here, and he has been posting frequently up until 7 months ago, and he has been especially responsive to posts about his brand.

 

[sablebrush52]

I have to argue, (Maybe you meant it with some hyperbole?) because I have only ever seen maybe a couple of posts concerning GLP tins losing their seal, and if I remember, they were by you (your experience and a post you made about a couple of ebay posts where the tins looked rusted).

Believe it or not, there are other forums besides PM. People discussed this on Pipes.org where there were questions about which tins were more reliable, the gold or the silver. People posted about questions on the Usenet ASP board. I haven't been on the ASP site in ages. Might be worth looking to see what shows up. People discussed this on the now gone PSF forum.
As we sail down the uncertain seas of long term cellaring, we may find more casualties. Blenders change the tins they use. C&D certainly did during the period between 2000 and 2005. Are today's tins as robust as the tins used 30 years ago? Has anyone noticed that C&D's plastic tops don't actually fit?
60% is the actual percentage of tins that failed. Maybe 4 or 5 years ago it might have been 20%, or maybe none. Or it might have been 60%. Besides, Greg has nothing to do with this. He's not responsible for this. C&D did the tinning.
Cellaring is a matter of hope, faith, and a little fear, not certainty.

 

[crashthegrey]

I thought this post was going to be about the oven or dashboard again, but this is something. And Cosmic beat me again, this isn't chewing tobacco. Why be afraid of a glass shard in your pipe?

 

[bigpond]

Cellaring is a matter of hope, faith, and a little fear, not certainty.

True that.
Back in 2014 Per Jensen reassured we pipesmokers not to worry about losing seal on 2 year old tins on ODF. The tins would be ok and just ignore all the rust inside because you couldn’t taste it anyway. Per said (paraphrasing) rust is an inevitable byproduct of blends treated with vinegar. So, if MacBaran’s couldn’t ensure rust free vacuum sealed tins what hope is there for C&D, for example, at the time? This is just one of myriad issues that can go awry in an otherwise well treated tin. And yet, comments about rust in newly cracked vintage tins are seemingly rare, well at least when a vacuum can be identified. So why is this?
I crack ‘em and jar ‘em. Have only had one fail, and that was C&D before the “reformulation” and pg.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Now, I am worried about breathing in second hand glass. 8O

 

[kola]

Sablebrush's comments covered my thoughts nicely. There's been plenty of posts/reports regarding the GLP tin problems. It's far from a rarity.
I didn't even know about C&D mold issues. But I rarely buy their tobaccos anyway.
And as Sablebrush said (and I have mentioned it here and on other forums several times before) this was no fault of Gregs.
Over the years I've heard many stories of other brand name tobacco tins going rusty,drying out, etc as well. IMO, No tobacco is safe in a tin. There's a higher risk leaving tobacco in a tin than putting it into a mason jar or mylar.

 

[sablebrush52]

Per said (paraphrasing) rust is an inevitable byproduct of blends treated with vinegar.

Correct. There has been discussion on other fora about the long term viability of tinned tobaccos preserved with vinegar or acetic acid. I suspect that it relies on the quality of the tins used. While you do hear about the occasional tin of McClelland rotting out, that seems to be pretty rare, at least so far. As I understand it, McClelland used high quality food grade tins for their tobaccos. That doesn't mean anyone else does, and from Per's statement, it's likely other makers don't. Or maybe there's more failures happening and no one wants to come forward and post about it.
It's also difficult to make any generalizations based off of a forum population. Forums represent a very small percentage of a very small percentage of a very small percentage of a very small percentage of a very small percentage of the pipe smoking population.

 

[jpmcwjr]

Forums represent a very small percentage of a very small percentage of a very small percentage of a very small percentage of a very small percentage of the pipe smoking population.

Sooooo- not many folks, huh?