About Seconds

[Alejo R.]

When is a pipe a second?
I'm restoring a pair of Tudor Roses that don't say Astley's anywhere but say 10 Jermyn Street London and have the A on the mouthpiece.
This leads me to wonder when a pipe is a second brand and when it is a downline of the main brand? It happens to me with some Savinelli that don't say anything and others don't say Savinelli but they have the brand's shield. For example, I have a Royal Stuart that clearly says Sasieni underneath.
If we saw a shoe with a Swoosh we wouldn't doubt that it's Nike, even if it doesn't say so, if we see a car with an oval we wouldn't doubt that it's Ford, or that it's Renault if it had a Rhombus.
What do you think?

 

[tobakenist]

It varies with all brands, some makes don't even stamp them and sells them cheap, basket pipes is what they call them in the USA, some say reject, some have partial stamps like yours that gives you a clue, just enjoy the pipe.

 

[Alejo R.]

It varies with all brands, some makes don't even stamp them and sells them cheap, basket pipes is what they call them in the USA, some say reject, some have partial stamps like yours that gives you a clue, just enjoy the pipe.

I don't think a basket or reject pipe is the same as a Second Brand.

 

[tobakenist]

I don't think a basket or reject pipe is the same as a Second Brand.

In my country a second is a reject, many British makes used different names for the rejects but they were still not top notch to be fully branded and in the 1960's I picked up a pipe with a white spot stem with no stampings, my best ever Basket pipe.

 

[Alejo R.]

In my country a second is a reject, many British makes used different names for the rejects but they were still not top notch to be fully branded and in the 1960's I picked up a pipe with a white spot stem with no stampings, my best ever Basket pipe.

Your point of view is interesting, because the discrepancy of opinions is noticeable. But do you consider a Guildhall pipe or a Trident pipe as a basket pipe? They certainly aren't Comoy's.

 

[kcghost]

When a manufacturer makes a line of pipes and gives the pipe a new name, then it is a second.

 

[warren]

Seconds? Rejects? Baskets? These terms are open to interpretation and certainly dependent on the user's personal interpretation. Just read all of the replies. Thankfully or, maybe sorrowfully, no government or appointed body has assumed the mantel of ruler of the pipe. Some poor writer/speaker may think everyone hearing/reading is on the "same page" but, that is very rare. Such leads to many spirited discussions on this board. Words mean something. Unfortunately, words have different meanings to different people.

 

[ssjones]

The Tudor Rose is absolutely a 2nd line for Astley's. I had two, they are fine pipes and i think Astley's must have been very discerning.

 

[ssjones]

Some old Astley's info from the past. Yikes, was that really 10 years ago..

Astley Pipes = Re-Stamped Estate Pipes (Photos) :: General Pipe Smoking Discussion

A recent post on the old "Astley Assertion in Pipedia" thread ( http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/astley-assertion-in-pipedia ) seems to give photographic proof of the assertion that "Astley" pipes being sold by James Upshall Co on ebay are really restamped estate pipes. It is truly...

pipesmagazine.com

 

[greysmoke]

It's a fascinating topic, but consider the huge number of variables involved. To simplify:

There are seconds due to flaws that emerge in a given pipe during manufacturing. This would often mean pits big enough to require filling with putty, and possibly other perceived flaws such as irregular or even "bald" grain patterns. Examples of this include Peterson's Irish Seconds and Savinelli Seconds, plus possibly hundreds of other brands.

An example is this photo showing an Irish Seconds on the right in the Sherlock Holmes Original shape next to a fully-branded Sherlock Holmes Original Pipe. There are obvious and significant flaws in the Irish Seconds -- but notice the small putty fill towards the back of the shank in the Sherlock Holmes pipe. I've provided a detailed photo of this flaw below. It's pretty obvious which pipe is the second, but neither pipe is flawless.





Seconds also occur when pipes, otherwise expertly made, simply don't measure up to the pipe maker's expectations. This type of second may be found wanting because the briar is disappointing in terms of grain patterns, or because a small flaw appears as the briar is worked. An example of this are Tilshead pipes from James Upshall, but there are countless others. Personally, I've never seen a Tilshead with a putty fill or off center drilling, or other obvious flaw in carving. They're as well made as a full-branded Upshall. But on some day, at a particular time, Barry Jones thought: "No, this one doesn't quite measure up," and reached for the Tilshead stamp.

The pipe below is an Upshall-made Tilshead. What made it a "second"? The tiny sand pit near the center of the bowl is my best guess.

 

[anotherbob]

what's the difference between a girlfriend and a "just" a friend? The opinion of the person calling it that and how closely they want to be associated with the person or thing. Functionally there isn't any substantial difference. Each term is more about the level of ownership and connection the makers wants us to make.

 

[mso489]

There are so many definitions of seconds I think the word has lost its meaning. Rossi is owned by Savinelli and shares its shapes but has less elaborate finishes and is lower priced, so I don't count that as a second.

House pipes are usually made by a factory pipe maker but do not bear their brand name, and I don't consider them seconds.

Pipe shop sales people are prone to hint that any unbranded pipe they have stamped "Made In England," or "Made In London" could be a Dunhill second, but that is not to be believed.

Many no-name basket pipes are just inexpensively made and are not seconds of anything.

To me, a true second would share one of the shapes of its maker, might have a few fills or be finished over in rustication, and be substantially lower priced than the main pipe brand. You can find these, but only among many other possibilities.

I have a Savinelli that I bought out of a basket that has the shield and that came unfinished at a fairly low price. That is as close to a second as I come, I think. It has finished itself over the years and looks both stained and polished, though I have never added any sort of polish nor wax, only polished it by hand over the years with a soft cloth.

 

[Doctor Chopper]

what's the difference between a girlfriend and a "just" a friend? The opinion of the person calling it that and how closely they want to be associated with the person or thing. Functionally there isn't any substantial difference. Each term is more about the level of ownership and connection the makers wants us to make.

Is the girlfriend a second? I need more clarity. BTW - I would avoid the term "ownership" in the same paragraph. Believe me, I have a friend who..........

 

[anotherbob]

Is the girlfriend a second? I need more clarity. BTW - I would avoid the term "ownership" in the same paragraph. Believe me, I have a friend who..........

the point was supposed to be that the terms are just about association. You might hang out and do all the same stuff with a lady that's just a friend, but you don't want people saying that's his main squeeze. And how the things that make the difference are completely up to the person choosing what to call the other person. Or the only quality between seconds and side brands is that the main brands opinion not any universal qualities.

 

[Doctor Chopper]

the point was supposed to be that the terms are just about association. You might hang out and do all the same stuff with a lady that's just a friend, but you don't want people saying that's his main squeeze. And how the things that make the difference are completely up to the person choosing what to call the other person. Or the only quality between seconds and side brands is that the main brands opinion not any universal qualities.

Sorry, I can get sarcastic. My comment was in jest. I agree with you completely.

 

[anotherbob]

Sorry, I can get sarcastic. My comment was in jest. I agree with you completely.

though what's funny is that woman and men use different terms. For example just a friend gets called the other girl by girlfriends. And weirdly people get into these fights over the terms used

 

[Doctor Chopper]

though what's funny is that woman and men use different terms. For example just a friend gets called the other girl by girlfriends. And weirdly people get into these fights over the terms used

My wife and I discuss guy friends. Women see wholesome intentions. I see a dude biding his time until an opportunity opens up.

 

[anotherbob]

My wife and I discuss guy friends. Women see wholesome intentions. I see a dude biding his time until an opportunity opens up.

I've been both guys so....

 

[Doctor Chopper]

I've been both guys so....

Haven't we all. Every guy gets it, no woman believes it.

 

[Hillcrest]

It happens to me with some Savinelli that don't say anything and others don't say Savinelli but they have the brand's shield.

When is a pipe a second ? Second of what ? It depend on the brand. With regard to Savinelli - they actually marketed their "seconds" - for example the erica fiammata line was the jubilee D'oro with microscopic fills but sold as a second to the jubilee d'oro. In the 90's-00s they sold tobacco shops some savinelli pipes they could stamp their store name on called "Private Label" --- I have one without the store name and the stem is stamped "PL" and has all Sav hallmarks and stamps (a 614). Peterson marketed their seconds which were pipes with fills and some cosmetic flaws and they are very popular --- Peterson pipe notes has articles on these.
To say a pipe is a second is misleading unless you define the term second. Comoy's London Pride was a natural finish pipe for the American Market and they listed it just below the Blue Riband --- is that a "second" when its a line of pipes they market ? Some would say no - its a first.

In the old days of yore (how I miss yore!) --- seconds were first run pipes that had flaws or fills and were graded out of the production line and sold as "seconds" for less value. With regard to other products you might say "rejects" - not perfect but not "bad". Remington Cutlery used to stamp rejects as rejects --- perfectly good cutlery just not cosmetically perfect --- like someone slipped when shaping the edge or knicked the wood on the handle etc ...

So to answer your question - IMHO - it depends...