A Stark Warning

[cosmicfolklore]

And there'll always be the people that point it out and complain.

Amen! I understand when someone says, "maybe we shouldn't do this thing." That is putting it out there for discussion. But, I think it becomes a frantic phobia when someone says, "DON'T DO THIS THING EVER." There in lies the mental disorder, IMO.

It's like the whole wait ten minutes after eating before swimming thing. And, then you go swimming under the guidance of some well meaning parent, and they force you set out of the pool after giving you a meager snack, freaking out of you even ask, "what's the worst that can happen?" Ohhh, all of those thousands and thousands of kids who died because they swam after eating a hotdog. Poor things.

Besides, this is a forum. Why would anyone even make a post if they just expected everyone to agree with them? No one would even bother to comment at all. Like, "don't smoke your pipe while skydiving." Then maybe ten people would post, "absolutely, I agree with you." "Thank you for the reminder." "You are so right."
What a boring forum that would be.

 

[simong]

Indeed.

Endlessly, and without regard for the subject.

Compulsive Contrarianism isn't considered a standalone mental disorder, but is related to and associated with a number of them.



View attachment 303335

 

[RustiePyles CPG]

Let's establish a few scientific facts.

Most known materials expand when heated. Expansion rates vary from material to material.

Most known materials contract when cooled. Rates vary from material to material.

(The very small hand full of exotic materials that experience NTE aka negative thermal expansion do not apply to this debate unless you have a pipe made of ruthenate ceramic or zirconium tungstate)

Steam is a conductor of heat.

Burning tobacco produces steam.

Briar, vulcanite, ebonite, gutta percha, acrylic, horn, Delrin, nylon, vinyl, aluminum all have different thermal expansion rates. Meaning that when heated to same same temp they expand at different rates and they do not cool at the same rate.

Now that we've established those indisputable, measurable, scientific facts, let's establish a few facts about pipes.

Not all briar pipes have the same level of interference fit at the tenon, dimensions can vary wildly from pipe to pipe.

Not all tenons have the same wall thickness.

Not all pipes have the same shank wall thickness.

Not all tenons are cut with a fillet. (Tenons cut with a sharp transition are more prone to material failure than tenons cut with a fillet.)

Local environment and smoking habits create unknown variables.


Now that we know all of this

We can come to a logical conclusion, removing the stem from a pipe when it's hot CAN statistically increase the likelihood of material failure.

That does not mean that every tenon/shank will fail when separated under elevated temperatures. But it does mean that telling someone that it's fine to do if you are unfamiliar with their pipe, smoking habits, physical environment, dexterity, or any other unknown contributing factor is not a great idea.

A pipe smoker living in arizona with a with very low relative humidity who smokes dry, cool, and slow probably won't have to many issues. Whereas a guy living in Florida where you can cut the moisture with a knife and freight trains his pipes, is probably gonna have a bad day if they try to yank a hot stem...

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Let's establish a few scientific facts.

Most known materials expand when heated. Expansion rates vary from material to material.

Most known materials contract when cooled. Rates vary from material to material.

(The very small hand full of exotic materials that experience NTE aka negative thermal expansion do not apply to this debate unless you have a pipe made of ruthenate ceramic or zirconium tungstate)

Steam is a conductor of heat.

Burning tobacco produces steam.

Briar, vulcanite, ebonite, gutta percha, acrylic, horn, Delrin, nylon, vinyl, aluminum all have different thermal expansion rates. Meaning that when heated to same same temp they expand at different rates and they do not cool at the same rate.

Now that we've established those indisputable, measurable, scientific facts, let's establish a few facts about pipes.

Not all briar pipes have the same level of interference fit at the tenon, dimensions can vary wildly from pipe to pipe.

Not all tenons have the same wall thickness.

Not all pipes have the same shank wall thickness.

Not all tenons are cut with a fillet. (Tenons cut with a sharp transition are more prone to material failure than tenons cut with a fillet.)

Local environment and smoking habits create unknown variables.


Now that we know all of this

We can come to a logical conclusion, removing the stem from a pipe when it's hot CAN statistically increase the likelihood of material failure.

That does not mean that every tenon/shank will fail when separated under elevated temperatures. But it does mean that telling someone that it's fine to do if you are unfamiliar with their pipe, smoking habits, physical environment, dexterity, or any other unknown contributing factor is not a great idea.

A pipe smoker living in arizona with a with very low relative humidity who smokes dry, cool, and slow probably won't have to many issues. Whereas a guy living in Florida where you can cut the moisture with a knife and freight trains his pipes, is probably gonna have a bad day if they try to yank a hot stem...

It would be more helpful to know at exactly what temperature vulcanite and these other materials start to soften to a warping temperature. I don't think expansion is as much an issue as the softness of the material at certain temperatures. If it were merely expansion, then the material would just return to its original size when it cools, and there would be no fitting issues.
See, if we looked more closely at warpage, and a guy yanks the stem out, they are stretching the plastic tenon out of size. Then, I could see a misfit happening, more so that the whole expansion argument.

Does that make sense?

Then, if someone was to pull the tenon out with a slight gentle twist, straight, with no bending of the tenon... then this person would probably never see any issues with fit from removing a warmed stem. But, this requires more dexterity and coordination than your average sausage fingered ape with a banana would have.

 

[RustiePyles CPG]

It would be more helpful to know at exactly what temperature vulcanite and these other materials start to soften to a warping temperature. I don't think expansion is as much an issue as the softness of the material at certain temperatures. If it were merely expansion, then the material would just return to its original size when it cools, and there would be no fitting issues.
See, if we looked more closely at warpage, and a guy yanks the stem out, they are stretching the plastic tenon out of size. Then, I could see a misfit happening, more so that the whole expansion argument.

Does that make sense?

Then, if someone was to pull the tenon out with a slight gentle twist, straight, with no bending of the tenon... then this person would probably never see any issues with fit from removing a warmed stem. But, this requires more dexterity and coordination than your average sausage fingered ape with a banana would have.

Material failures resulting from thermal expansion are not singular. They can be anything from snapped tenons to overly compressed wood fibers and removal of material from the mortise.

Vulcanite is an industry term for a myriad of formulations. Different manufacturers use different mixtures of base materials to make it. All the different formulations will have slightly different thermal expansion rates. The same goes for briar, not all briar is the same, grain structure, density, and physical dimensions will all cause thermal expansion rates to vary.

A giant bullcap with a .5" tenon and a .75" shank are not going to have the same thermal expansion rate as a pencil shank cutty with a 0.1875" tenon and a 0.3" shank even if they are made from the exact same materials.

Thermal expansion is directly related to not only material but also mass.

 

[woodsroad]

I think that we all need to worry about this a LOT more!

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I don't know if you follow what I am saying. Yes, I totally understand that things expand and contract. But, just exapanding and contracting does not mean that it will not return to its originial size when cooled back to the same temperature. Correct? Because if it didn't, then all stems would just be falling out after smoking them or leaving them in cold temperatures.

For example, if I have a stuck stem, I put it in the freezer to remove it. I remove the stem while still cold, but as it warms to the same temp as the briar, you are back to the same sizes... maybe the stems is too tight still, etc...

However, if the warmed stem begins to soften, it will be subject to warping if you disformed it by removing at an angle. Then you may begin to see fitment problems.

But, I just don't buy the expansion contraction argument by itself. All things, all materials return to the same size unless mass changes once cooled.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I think that we all need to worry about this a LOT more!

What, you don't want to see a discussion? Haha. I never understand why discussing something makes some people so uneasy. Rusty and I have history. I won't bite his head off, ha ha.

 

[bullet08]

It all depends on the pipe and the person smoking it. I always clean as soon as I'm done smoking. And I do take my pipes apart middle of smoking also. Some times, the tenon will get stuck. I think that's fashionable like JRRT.

 

[woodsroad]

Discussion is one thing. Humorless obsession (and we all know exactly how terribly humorless you are) is another.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Got it, so everyone is cool with a nonsensical expanding pipes that never return back to their original size argument.
Stick to the myths... Just remember, step on a crack and you will kill your mother.

 

[RustiePyles CPG]

I don't know if you follow what I am saying. Yes, I totally understand that things expand and contract. But, just exapanding and contracting does not mean that it will not return to its originial size when cooled back to the same temperature. Correct? Because if it didn't, then all stems would just be falling out after smoking them or leaving them in cold temperatures.

For example, if I have a stuck stem, I put it in the freezer to remove it. I remove the stem while still cold, but as it warms to the same temp as the briar, you are back to the same sizes... maybe the stems is too tight still, etc...

However, if the warmed stem begins to soften, it will be subject to warping if you disformed it by removing at an angle. Then you may begin to see fitment problems.

But, I just don't buy the expansion contraction argument by itself. All things, all materials return to the same size unless mass changes once cooled.

I'm following ya, your saying if you pull apart a hot pipe then it should return to its previous state once cooled. No harm no foul. And yes, if you managed to get it apart without breaking it in the first place. But if its so tight that the tenon snaps it's not going to reattach itself once the pipes cools. If you try to immediately shove the stem back in and it removes material from the overly tight mortise or galls it won't return when cooled. If the tenon stretches, it won't return, if the tenon bends, it won't return (easily).

All i'm saying is that there are to many contributing factors and unknowns to advocate doing something that could potentially cause damage. Especially when the alternative is just wait a few minutes before doing something.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

But if its so tight that the tenon snaps it's not going to reattach itself once the pipes cools. If you try to immediately shove the stem back in and it removes material from the overly tight mortise or galls it won't return when cooled. If the tenon stretches, it won't return, if the tenon bends, it won't return (easily).

But like, I've never had that happen. Maybe it is my Luck Charms underwear.

factors and unknowns to advocate doing something that could potentially cause damage.

And, my post was fraught with warnings to those who do not have fine motor skills, which is most people by the way some will send off pipes to have them reamed, or do not make their own replacement stems. But, some of us...

For me, it's just that this whole hobby is full of myths. Pipes not passing pipe cleaners makes a bad smoking pipe. Warm pipe stem removal. Water in pipes. All tobaccos are cased. Briar quality... anything Briar Lee has posted... so much mythos.

If it weren't for people challenging mythos, we'd all be killing people to Zeus or tossing perfectly good virgins into volcanos.

 

[LeafErikson]

Got it, so everyone is cool with a nonsensical expanding pipes that never return back to their original size argument.
Stick to the myths... Just remember, step on a crack and you will kill your mother.

 

[jpmcwjr]

• You don't need to remove the stem to effectively clean a pipe. Whether the pipe is piping hot, warm or cold, a hot water flush through the chamber cleans things up.

•. Do some just yank or pull the stem out? I always rotate it (counter clockwise) using care to not put sideways pressure on the stem or stummel.

 

[captpat]

Ok, I’ll add my anecdotal contrarianism:

I remove the stem while smoking, or immediarely thereafter, all the time. Except if the stem is at all difficult to remove. I learned that lesson. Don’t force it.

^^^ This. With experience, I know into what regime each of my pipes falls into.

 

[RustiePyles CPG]

But like, I've never had that happen. Maybe it is my Luck Charms underwear.

I suspect a more likely explanation is that as an experienced pipe smoker, you smoke cooler, drier, and well made pipes. Your pipes likely never reach a temperature that would cause damage if the stem is removed. Where someone who freight trains a giant bowl of soaking wet Middletons Cherry might not be so lucky.

I'm honestly not sure why I'm trying to explain any of this, as a pipe repairman I make loads of money repairing and replacing loose and broken tenons. I'd sure like to know what causes all the loose tenons ...

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I suspect a more likely explanation is that as an experienced pipe smoker, you smoke cooler, drier, and well made pipes. Your pipes likely never reach a temperature that would cause damage if the stem is removed. Where someone who freight trains a giant bowl of soaking wet Middletons Cherry might not be so lucky.

I'm honestly not sure why I'm trying to explain any of this, as a pipe repairman I make loads of money repairing and replacing loose and broken tenons. I'd sure like to know what causes all the loose tenons ...

You forgot, nor do I have giant sausage fingers like an ape preparing a banana. I love that phrase on so many levels.

 

[Briarcutter]

I've seen many old pipe cleaners over the years. odd thing is, or isn't, is that they all seem to be the same general length, of course with the exception of those made for church wardens.
Maybe the length was intended for cleaning the pipe with the mouthpiece attached?

 

[anotherbob]

Ok, I’ll add my anecdotal contrarianism:

I remove the stem while smoking, or immediarely thereafter, all the time. Except if the stem is at all difficult to remove. I learned that lesson. Don’t force it.

100% my opinion too. The people I have seen break stems and shanks always force the stem and also smoke the pipe insanely hot. I've seen some folks try to push the stem the straight in while making super constipated face.