A Date Which Will Live in Infamy

[johnnyreb]

My dad had a Sept birthday, turned 18 and was a senior in high school. In Oct he and 2 other boys in his senior class were drafted out of high school and into the Navy. A 4th boy from his class was also 18 but his family were well off and owned the local Chevrolet-GMC dealership in our small town, and it was up to the local draft board to determine who was drafted and who wasn't. So he was not drafted. So the 3 boys went straight to basic training and then on to ship together; this was obviously before the change in policy due to the loss of the 5 Sullivan brothers.
He was not at Pearl Harbor but was on Okinawa in preparation to invade the mainland of Japan when Truman made his decision to drop the bomb.
My dad was just a farm kid who clouldn't even swim! For the rest of his life he firmly believed that the U.S. knew ahead of time that it was going to enteri into a war with Japan in the Pacific and that's why it was building up the Navy and drafting kids from high school.
Jobs were hard to come by in our little town. Whatever you did you expected to get laid off during winter. When the buildup to Korea began my dad re enlisted.

 

[tbradsim1]

I just want to say as a Vet who dressed his best friend who died because of Agent Orange I have personal feelings about this, but to blame anyone or a Country doesn't undo the pain people feel when they are in this situation. He was a Helicopter pilot in Vietnam and died at 32, I stayed drunk for 2 days, hardest thing I ever did yet I know he didn't blame his Country. Men and Women do what needs to be done in War, if only Politicans were made to fight we would not have Wars.

 

[Chasing Embers]

No offence intended towards anyone if any was inferred. History seems loaded with odd coincidence. My unce fought in Vietnam, my brother has served in Afghanistan and worked riot control in Chili during his time in the Marines. I salute all those that stood up when the nation called.
@tbradsim1 ahmen

 

[ssjones]

My father, 95 is retired Army (33 years). He joined in WWII (also fought in Korea and in Vietnam), all infantry. He was in Panama during the bombing but did island clean-up as the war was ending. He retired in '73, the Army put him thru college (teaching degree) and I have to say that the medical care he received thru the VA in Martinsburg WV was first rate. As retired Army, he and my mother have Tri-Care for Life insurance, which is unbelievably good. My father is legally blind now and the VA pulled out all the stops to give him the things/care he needs. They are quite fortunate, I realize that doesn't happen to every veteran.
We visited the Arizona Memorial a few years ago, and on a sunny Hawaiian day, we were struck by the darkness of the place, hallowed ground indeed. Sadly, our local paper had a story yesterday that the Memorial has fallen into disrepair and there are allegations of graft, etc. Hopefully someone in the Parks department can get this straightened out.
Thanks to all those that have and continue to serve.
Here's a shot of him on Veterans Day, with another local WWII vet. Rocking his 1st Infantry Division gear. He said "No mission too difficult, no sacrifice too great, duty first".

 

[huntertrw]

ssjones:
I stand in honor of your Father, all those who served, and those that serve this day. We have much to be thankful for, indeed.

 

[johnnyreb]

Al,
It is great that you still have your father! Cherish everyday, every moment that you spend with him. Pick his brain again & again for every little detail of every little story you have heard a thousand times over thru the years. Then it becomes your responsibility to carry that history forward! Happy Holidays to your family.

 

[layinpipe]

Thank you to all those who have served; past present and future. I have the utmost respect and gratitude for all military personnel.
My paternal grandfather was a WWII vet, although he fought in the European theater of the war. He lied about his age and joined when he was 16 or 17 and left high school to do so. He would not talk much about those days, as many vets did not want to reflect on such horrible times. I did try to get as much as i could out of him towards the end of his life, if only to keep his and other WWII service veterans' memories alive to pass down to my own kids. He told me that him and his friends couldn't wait to sign up and get over there (either pacific or europe, didn't matter to them) and get even with those sons of bitches that attacked america. He said that was just the way it was back then and how everyone thought. There were no draft dodgers back in that day, as everyone took pearl harbor personally, as if they had attacked one of their family members or friends. Truly the greatest generation in American history, in my opinion. My grandfather ended the war as a POW with the Germans and was a 2 time purple heart recipient. I could not imagine going through all that chaos as a kid of 16-18. It still blows my mind to think of the sacrifices so many of them made for this country. And most of them made the sacrifice completely voluntarily. It is truly humbling.
My grandfather was and will always be one of my hero's, along with that entire generation of American soldiers. They literally saved the world and humanity as we know it.
Al, your father has to be the one on the left, because you are a spitting image of him, lol! My deepest thanks and respect goes out to your father and the sacrifices he and his fellow servicemen made for this country.

 

[okiescout]

It has been said, "old men start wars and young men die in them."
Having said that, real aggression on the part of the Japanese and German forces left no room for setting it out.

Speaking of reading a book, try "King Rat."
I care take my 89 year old dad. He was an 18 year old young man who volunteered, joined the US Navy, and served with the Marines in the South Pacific. He has never talked much about the war. He loved the Filipino people who he worked with on several occasions. He hired Vietnamese men and women, flown to the States after the War, who had been friendly to the American forces.

He once showed me a picture of a boy of about 8, scar running from one side to the other of his stomach. A Marine patrol found "Butch" laying beside a trail,after a 17" Japanese bayonet had been used on him. Dad helped to save his life. That and maybe 3 others are my dad's war stories. Stories about the people he served with and helped.
There are few things good about any war. One consequence of them is that civilians die. I get ticked when I hear folks bemoaning the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The Japanese Government NEVER apologized for their war of butchery and aggression on the native people of the Pacific Islands they invaded ( by the way I am Cherokee on my mother's side and Comanche on my father's) I am aware of the American governments shortcomings. Many Native American People proudly served in this war ( and the others this country has fought). I am also aware that no country in the world has stepped up like the US, when help is needed in the world.
Most of the Japanese people thought they could win the war with the US. It took the annihilation of two cities to get the Emperor's Attention. Even then the Army leadership was committed to continuing the fight, on Japanese soil, at a cost to the Japanese people of millions of lives.
Dropping the BOMB, saved my dad and untold hundreds of thousands of other American lives.
I have heard much discussion about the civilians killed in these bombings, but no one, at these events, ever alludes to the reasons they were used. I understand this is because the Japanese do not teach their children about the true events of the war. It is glossed over as a DARK TIME in Japanese history. On the other hand, there is no reason an American's should be ignorant of these facts.

 

[mcitinner1]

@Al ssjones, I'm wondering if your father was able to go on the Honor Flight. It is such a wonderful thing they do for vets and they really love it. :clap:

 

[okiescout]

No. He has trouble standing and maintaining his balance. Took a pretty good bounce on the floor, while I was gone the other day. He is pretty game for trying things, but gravity and almost 90 winters are catching up with him.
When I get the chores done, I go out on the deck for a pipe. I was having a bowl the other night, when he rolled out and set by me next to the fire. He told me he liked to go down and get a cigar and go to the movies when he was stationed in Hawaii after the war. If I can get it scanned I'll post a pic of him with his pipe in the Navy.
My dad is the best man I have ever known. No BS! I have watched him all my life. I'll die satisfied, if I'm half the man he is.

 

[ssjones]

@mcintinner1: He never had a chance to participate in the Honor Flight. We did take him to the WWII museum in New Orleans this past June, where he was treated like a rock star.
@Okie: Its interesting that you mention the impact of war on civilians. We also had my mom at the WWII museum and underestimated the impact of the opening movie on her. It is intense, much like the start of Saving Private Ryan was, but with smoke, explosions and shaking seats. During the film, she started crying and everyone there wanted to know what was wrong. She was a refuge from Hungary, having fled the Nazi's and then Russians. As an 18 year old, she was separated from her family and held at a refuge camp in Austria, where she met my father. She lived thru bombings, etc. Everyone at the show surrounded and hugged her too. Because Hungary was communist and my father in a sensitive career position in the Army, she did not return to her home country until the Iron Curtain fell.
My fathers military records were some of those burned in St. Louis and I had to retype his history, from his own notes. There was details in there he never shared verbally. Fortunately we did this before he lost his eyesight. We have also recorded my mother story as she fled Hungary. Hopefully, that will be enough for their grand children to remember their stories.
After leaving US occupied Austria, my father was moved to the occupation of Japan in the late-40's. He saw first hand the effects of the atomic bomb and made many life long Japanese friends (all of whom he has outlived). He has some nerve issues today, and I wonder if that might have been caused by his exposure to radiation. (and later Agent Orange)
I apologize for this long reply! But on a related note, I watched "Railway Man" this weekend, which is based the true story of Eric Lomax and the building of the Thai-Burma railway. It was very moving and I highly recommend this movie. I will now read the book.

 

[pipebaum81]

Lest we forget: On this date 73 years ago the Empire of Japan attacked the United States' naval base at Pearl Harbor in Hawaii.

This is the purpose of the thread, at least in mind.
To the honored dead who were caught off guard and hardly had the ability to protect themselves, you will not be forgotten. Not for as long a I continue to serve this country. Until my last sane thoughts dry up in my mind I will remember. My two young children will carry on the knowledge of your bravery and heroism. We will try to live up to your standard and pedigree.
I had the honor of meeting a surviving sailor from the attack of Pearl Harbor in 2005 or 06 at Ft Richardson, Alaska. The only one in attendance who didn't have the utmost reverence for this man was indeed himself. Moving. In my view, their story is just as sacred as those that were lost that day. The survivor endured horrors I can only imagine in my worst of nightmares. They returned to their loved ones forever changed and forced to try to continue to live while so many of their military family was not afforded the same opportunity.
The price of war is great. Reason alone to never forget.

 

[tuold]

@johnnyreb

For the rest of his life he firmly believed that the U.S. knew ahead of time that it was going to enteri into a war with Japan in the Pacific and that's why it was building up the Navy and drafting kids from high school.

I think those were dangerous times. All the major powers were building up their military forces. Much like now, fear and paranoia could be used to enact laws and policies which could not otherwise get by congress and leaders used that to full advantage. Of course, the world economy benefited from all that production and the economic depression was lifted.
FDR knew that embargoes would drive Japan into the Dutch East Indies and expand the war. You can read that in his letters to his wife. I'm just an armchair historian and a poor one at that, but from my reading I think Roosevelt underestimated the Japanese military very much just as our current administration underestimated ISIS. (They went from 2nd string terrorists" to ."..even more dangerous than al Queda" almost overnight. Most Americans thought of Japanese soldiers as bucked toothed, short, rice eating, thick bespectacled Dwarves in tin tanks. What many see as conspiracy I see mostly as blind stupidity. (Then and now) Maybe FDR knew that war was coming, but I think he tragically underestimated the ability of Japan to bring it to our doorstep.

 

[johnnyreb]

"What many see as conspiracy I see mostly as blind stupidity."
Tuold, just to be clear I didn't mean to imply that he thought the U.S. knew that Pearl Harbor would be attacked ahead of time and perhaps did nothing to prevent it; only that he believed our government knew we would be entering into war with Japan in the Pacific months before the attack. It was inevitable at that point and that's why they accelerated the draft, taking 18 yr olds who were still in high school: the only time that has ever been done. No student deferments.
My dad never graduated high school. By the time the war was over and he returned he would have had to finish his senior year in the class with one of his younger sisters. He had been thru too much & seen too much in the war to ever be able to go back to school.

 

[meatballj]

On topic but a little off, when I bought my house six years ago, I found an old piece of shale used as a sort of cobblestone walkway from the door to the garage. The stone measures about 3'x2' and carved into it, about 1/4 deep, is the following "VJ Day Aug 15/45" I should note, I'm Canadian so we commemorate the date a little differently than the Sept.2nd recognized by our American brethren. I often imagine the old man who had owned this house sitting there the day the news came over the radio (likelihood even of him pipe clenched in teeth as I've found old Canadian Imperial tobacco tins under decking) and being so struck by its significance that he felt the need to chisel it upon stone. This is one of the many things which I love about my house; built in 1889, its stories are numerous and in some instances permanently etched into its core and surroundings.

 

[saint007]

The Japs made three big mistakes at Pearl;
*Admiral Nimitz said, "The Japs made three of the biggest mistakes an

attack force could ever make, or **God was taking care of America.*

*Shocked and surprised, the young helmsman asked, "What do mean by saying

the Japs made the three biggest mistakes an attack force ever made?"

Nimitz explained:*

*Mistake number one* *:*

*The Japs attacked on Sunday morning. Nine out of*

*every ten crewmen of those ships were ashore on leave. If those same ships

had been lured to sea and been sunk--we would have lost 38,000 men instead

of 3,800.*

*Mistake number two* *:*

*When the Japs saw all those battleships lined in a row, they got so

carried away sinking those battleships, they never once bombed our dry

docks opposite those ships. If they had destroyed our dry docks, we would

have had to tow every one of those ships to America to be repaired.*

*As it is now, the ships are in shallow water and can be raised. One tug

can pull them over to the dry docks, and we can have them repaired and at

sea by the time we could have towed them to America . And I already have

crews*

*ashore anxious to man those ships.*

*Mistake number three:*

*Every drop of fuel in the Pacific theater of war is in top of the ground

storage tanks five miles away over that hill. One attack plane could have

strafed those tanks and destroyed our fuel supply and burned half the

island down. That's why I say the Japs made three of the biggest

mistakes an attack force could make or* *God was taking care of America.*

 

[okiescout]

Most Americans thought of Japanese soldiers as bucked toothed, short, rice eating, thick bespectacled Dwarves in tin tanks.
tuold, I am no so sure that is how the average American saw the Japanese, in the early stages of the war.
We were falling back, falling back. The Japanese were seen as jungle warfare experts, and given much credit for their ability to adapt to the terrain. The momentum of war was - the US on the defensive in the Pacific. We were engaged in a full blown war in Europe which ate up and ground up men, supplies, and equipment.
Until we got online with our production, trained our troops and got them blooded we were geared to see the enemy as superior fighting men in both theaters. Propaganda films of the day were staged to undermine that fear in this country, and as always it is essential to have you hate your enemy ( in the eyes of those who control men's lives). Nothing on this level is ever simple, I suppose.
I believe that your quote may have been more accurate at the end of the war.

 

[tbradsim1]

I worked with Bobby Crais father of the author Rober Crais. He was a Colonel in the Army and fought in the Pacific. When in the 70s we started courting theJapanese in order to sell them the technology for building Ethylene plants we would have Japanese Enginers and top management people tour the units .Bobby hated the Japanese and was a top instrument man at the plant, my job was to get Bobby away as he was uncontrollable around them, I was a combat vet in another decade and I was the only one that could calmn him down. We had several other old timers we had to watch, I didn't blame them as my tour didn't endear me to the Asian race, I have mellowed in my old age. Hatreds die hard.

 

[boilermakerandy]

I worked with Bobby Crais father of the author Rober Crais. He was a Colonel in the Army and fought in the Pacific. When in the 70s we started courting theJapanese in order to sell them the technology for building Ethylene plants we would have Japanese Enginers and top management people tour the units .Bobby hated the Japanese and was a top instrument man at the plant, my job was to get Bobby away as he was uncontrollable around them, I was a combat vet in another decade and I was the only one that could calmn him down. We had several other old timers we had to watch, I didn't blame them as my tour didn't endear me to the Asian race, I have mellowed in my old age. Hatreds die hard.

My mom's two first cousins (brothers) both fought in the Pacific, they were much the same as your friend. I also had a high school teacher who was a family friend who fought the Japanese. His son ended up marrying a Japanese girl and he wouldn't speak to his son for several years. Some really bad stuff went down in that theatre so it's understandable that they felt that way.

 

[boilermakerandy]

When you build up your soldiers to think they are superior and not obliged to follow the accepted social norms of the time, cruelty results--forced prostitution in China and Korea, slave labor, civilian massacres, torture and starvation of prisoners of war, even weird medical experiments. Germany had similar behaviors. When that treatment happens to people you know, the effects are very personal. The internment of Japanese-Americans probably kept them from being beaten and murdered. Making them give up their possessions and sell homes and businesses at losses was not doing them a favor. Waiting 40 plus years to give the few internment survivors $10,000 in reparations was a sad, sad joke and huge insult.

Agree.
I've always been a great admirer of the Japanese people and Japanese culture. They are a very interesting people. My wife and I are both of German ancestry and our people did some horrendous things but we don't hate ourselves when we look in the mirror or feel what was done is somehow in our DNA. People are people and all societies make mistakes. Government is always the one at fault.