A Beginner's Pipes Cost $900

[cosmicfolklore]

Thanks Allan, for simplifying that. LOL, I tend to stumble around with my words sometimes.

 

[sablebrush52]

Here is one perspective on the subject. How much do you make in a days worth of work? $75, $150 or even $300 in a days work... so why can't a pipe carver make that much in one day?
Just last night while on Skype I was talking with a well known premium pipe carver who makes amazing pipes of very high grade. He'll spend 2-3 days just sanding a pipe. That doesn't count the actual carving and staining etc. It typically takes him one week or so to make one pipe from start to finish. If he works on the pipe 8 hours a day for a whole week; why shouldn't he charge $600 to $900 for his work? He has every right to charge what he feels his pipes are worth and if someone buys it then they'll get themselves a very good high grade pipe.

As a professional artisan, I agree. But I also understand that efficiency is part of the equation. Tom Eltang, one of the finest, if not the finest, carvers working today makes over 500 pipes a year. He's not doing that by spending two to three days sanding a bowl or a spending a week on a pipe.
I paint paintings for a living, and have done so for close to 40 years. I've worked as a "fine" artist with gallery shows. I've worked as a matte painter, conceptualist, and VFX supervisor in Visual Effects industry. These days I work as a production artist in the animation field. I have deadlines to hit, budgets to hit, and the expectation of achieving excellence, whatever the subject matter or the style of the show. If I can't perform to, or exceed the expectations of my employers, I'll be out in the blink of an eye. It's a small market, extremely competitive, and unfortunately beginning to become cutthroat. I've learned to get a great result through efficient means in dozens of productions of every description and I continue to hone my skills and knowledge constantly and to learn from my fellows. That's what is known as expertise. I get paid for my expertise, but not just any amount I care to name. Every studio has a fee structure and it's take it or leave it. That's true whether I'm working as a background painter who is executing someone else's style, or as an art director and visual development artist who is creating the style. To make a good living as an artisan one must work efficiently. I'm not paid for being inefficient or self indulgent. Surviving as a successful professional artisan requires results within limits.
When I read discussions surrounding artisanry, in this instance pipes, my response is colored by my decades of working as an artist, artisan, peon, what have you. So I get the pain, and I also get the bullshit. There is a huge amount of both in the field of being an artisan, regardless of the industry in which one toils.
The carvers who work in high end factories like Castello turning out handmade pipes are no less gifted than their auteur counterparts. In some ways, the demands on their expertise are even greater since they have to be able to able to repeat a shape within close tolerances using a highly unpredictable organic material as their raw source, and they need to do it on a schedule with a high degree of success. I've had to turn out a series of matte paintings that work together seamlessly, cut to cut to cut. Much less difficult to do in the modern digital age, but I was doing this with paint, brushes and glass and it was very tricky to do. Having worked both as an "auteur" and as a "factory" worker I can appreciate the demands of both.
I love handwork. I've dedicated my life to it. But I don't love "preciousness" surrounding handwork. That kills growth.

 

[numbersix]

I love handwork. I've dedicated my life to it. But I don't love "preciousness" surrounding handwork. That kills growth.

Well said. Not to say that K's pipes aren't worth $900 - I think they probably are to the right buyer, but overall I think you're on the mark sablebrush.

 

[sablebrush52]

When it comes to art it opens a whole different element though. That is what is pleasant to behold. What I might find as a nice fine painting to someone else is terrible. We might even agree that the artist is very talented, but we cannot agree on the piece we are looking at. Look at music. So many different styles. So many talented people, yet we don't like everything we hear.
( I heard a rumor that peck is the head of his local Justin Bieber fan club ).
Pipes are similar. There are lots of super talented carvers doing some pretty amazing new shapes. Allot of it leaves me ice cold. I can appreciate the skill, but the pipe is not one I'd pay $1.00 for or smoke.

Hi Mike,
Agreed. I'm one of those misguided folks that believe that a pipe can be a work of art. And my experience of the "fine" art world was that BS counted for such a high portion of its activity that I could not continue in it, even though I was getting invitations to show at very important venues. I was losing my passion, and that was too much. So I went the commercial route, because it's more honest. There are standards of performance. One cannot just claim that anything s wonderful or important. There's BS there as well, but it's so much less than 'fine" art.
What attracts me to certain artisan makers is that their output has a consistent "personality" reflective of the maker. Paul Tatum comes to mind. His work looks like Paul Tatum and not like anybody else. For me, that's a mark of an mature artist as much a beauty of execution. That, and as I stated earlier, expertise, even when it comes to making art.
We are awash in ferocious virtuosity that lacks expression and feeling. Flaws are not necessarily a bad thing. When I listen to Cortot playing Chopin I get a splash of missed notes, but I also get the fullest expression of musicality and emotion. That's art to which I can relate. I see amazing feats of carving and technical perfection and I am unmoved by it. There's no personality.

 

[andystewart]

Very interesting discussion guys; I've learned a hell of a lot and the names of some craftsmen to look for. I haven't got to artisan pipes yet as I'm still in the grip of "that looks amazing - I have to have it!" PAD and I know that I can't justify the spend on a high-end work of art that might disappoint. I've only just got into cobs, for pity's sake, and I've already veered beyond MM to a couple of Aristocobs' nosewarmers! I love my briars, but I also love the learning experience these workhorses are giving me.
I'm a pipe-smoker rather than a collector and the way a pipe performs for me is the key. My own personal style and foibles means that not everything works, but at the moment I buy what I know gives me the best smoke. I have a Dunhill 4103 for which I gave $600 and of which I am very proud, but it's not in my top 10 performers - those are all Stanwells, a Savinelli, my cobs, a Harcourt, a Lindstrom with a turny-ring with different sized holes, and a little French Stroller for which I paid $2.50 and which is a delight.
My personal view - as a lifetime salesman - is that the right price is the most the buyer will pay, above your reserve.
@Walt - No and No - I would be far more of a danger to myself than the briar.
@Peck - I confess the bamboo thing doesn't do it for me (I liked the nosewarmer) but it is still a beautiful pipe. You must be really pleased!
Andy

 

[pitchfork]

We are awash in ferocious virtuosity that lacks expression and feeling. Flaws are not necessarily a bad thing. When I listen to Cortot playing Chopin I get a splash of missed notes, but I also get the fullest expression of musicality and emotion. That's art to which I can relate. I see amazing feats of carving and technical perfection and I am unmoved by it. There's no personality.

Can't agree enough with this. One of the first concerts I went to, when I was about 20, was a series of Brahms piano sonatas. The pianist played every note perfectly -- but it was like listening to a machine. It was nothing at all like the great recordings of those pieces that I had been listening to beforehand. Needless to say, I was a little disappointed.
I feel the same way about some of the pipes being made, today. Great technical skill and craftsmanship, but no discernible style. Some of the priciest American makers working today make flawless smoking machines with a high degree of fit and finish, but their style is just a mish-mash of this, that and the other. A little Bo Nordh, some Lars Ivarsson -- tack on some bamboo or boxwood... you get the picture. I guess I'm more tolerant of imperfect drilling or stem-shank fit if there's something interesting going on in the way of style and shape.

 

[pitchfork]

I happen to really like some of Kurusu's work, by the way. Peck's apple is gorgeous.

 

[halfy]

I am more a traditional guy so I got quite some dunhills but just a few handmade pipes (actually they stay far from the odd shapes). All my dunnies are great smoker but my best smoker is a Boris Starkov. It was made in 2011, the year he just made his name know. Do not judge with narrow minds. There are indeed some genius. And I appreciate his innovation of classic shapes. SP got two Starkovs on shelf for 2000 and 2500, and they sold in a few days.
Peck, you grabbed that Ray pipe before I could click the link in SP newsletter. Anyway, the box wood like ring in the mortise-stem connection might have stopped me, a tiny interruption of the fluency. I am paranoid about "Less is more".
BTW, no matter how well made a pipe is I would never buy anything like Tom Eltang who copies himself in mass production.

 

[thehappypiper]

$900 is around 6,000 RMB, which is by no means exceptional in China. My local guy's Dunhills are all over 5,000 and has has several nearer the 10K mark. Perusing his selection is likely to lead you to the conclusion that you'll "make do" with a %500 pipe. Hell, they are for life, right?

 

[halfy]

Hey guys, so it's one year later and let's see what we think about it now. :D
I bought several Ray Kurusu pipes. And I broke in two of them myself. A Dublin dedicated to Bo Nordh and a nose warmer. They all smoke fantastic. I mean at leas the Dublin beats most of the Jess Chonowitsch pipes I have used in terms of smoking quality. I never regretted the money I paid for them. I am not saying he is perfect or established. Actually he got the same problems like many newbie carvers, e.g. a tight mortise in dry season, not so well cured briar (it's actually well cured but not as good as Tokutomi san)... However the bottom line is, he got the know how and know why of the pipe engineering, and he carries it out precisely; he got good taste (I rarely saw some young carvers else got taste ... maybe except Boris...); he is dedicated to perfection, not for a living.
During a dinner time with Tokutomi san last year I asked him who were his favorite young carvers. He mentioned a few names, Ray was the first one. Then in a few seconds of thinking, Tokutomi san added a comment "he's the genius". Yes a newbie he is, but how many of the NBA players, throughout their life time could possibly beat the freshman Michael Jordan, though MJ was far naive and imperfect at that time :D
Let's review this thread in five or ten years....

 

[lohengrin]

104 posts (now 105) show how many opinions there can be on this topic. Many of these opinions can be shared, above all those of the professionals (not only pipemakers) that know what they are talking about.

For customers' point of view, since you cannot expect to be expert on every kind of thing you buy, I just can say:

don't worry, money is like asshole: everybody employs his own the way he prefers.

 

[sablebrush52]

Boy! I was in pretty good form in this one! If you have the money and interest to buy high grade artisan pipes, why not? But for the simple pleasure of a smoke, it's unnecessary.

keep coming back to a conversation I had some years back with a collector of Danish super high grades who said that his Nordhs smoked about as well as his Dr Gabrows. And he was quite serious.

 

[georged]

I know a collector who has over 1500 uber-grade pipes. Well over a million dollars worth. Among them are a couple of the largest/best collections of that particular marquee-name carver in existence.
One day I asked him, "Since you are in the position to know as not just speculate, which maker's pipes smoke the best?"
His answer? "Let's see... most are OK, but some aren't very good, believe it or not. Those I collect to look at and admire in other ways. All I really smoke is a rack of 20 Castellos."

 

[cally454]

I carve pipes on a truly amateur level. Thank god I don't have to try to make a go of it. To me it's a you got or you don't proposition. Some really got it. Jeff Graic I think was a minister. Dude threw a couple summers and what do you know. Rad Davis I believe was a fishing guide if you have the talent and someone beats your door down to give you a grand for your non equalled creations. What's the harm.

 

[sablebrush52]

The creative arts are not union shops.

They are if you work for a major motion picture studio, a symphony orchestra, or a major theater group, among other artistic organizations.

 

[pappymac]

If you look at his pipes from just a smoking pipe standpoint then maybe it is not worth $900 to most pipe smokers. I wouldn't buy one from that standpoint. I wouldn't buy one of the expensive Dunhills either.
However, if you look a pipe as a piece of artwork then it changes the discussion of "what is it value." I see some pipes in magazines and on-line and I think "Wow, that is beautiful and unique." If I was into collecting pipes just to look at or if I could I afford it, then maybe I would buy one.
But, I'm not an art collector and I don't buy pipes I won't smoke.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I get so aggravated with Skip Elliot, owner of The Briary pipe shop and pipemaker from the 80's and 90's. He was written about and quite popular back in the day, but now you'd never know it because you don;t see a pipe of his for sale anywhere. He does not take any commissions, and almost every pipe he makes is over a thousand, but they sale before he can get the stain finished. And, not to the Asian market. We have a few here in our community that don;t make pipes to get there work on all of the pipe forums. They sell their work before the wax is applied and they sale it for quite a bit.
Funny story, I rarely ever see him get his Irish up, but Skip was going on and on about how pipe makers calling themselves "artisans" was stupid, self-centered, idiotic, rant rant rant... "Frilly drama queens," "Pretentious, pretentious, pretentious as hell..." He obviously was having a bad day, ha ha.
So, I just nodded when he gave me a break in his rant and said, "No Skip, calling yourself an artisan pipe maker is not what makes you pretentious, it's charging $3000 for a freaking poker sitter that makes your pretentious as hell. Ha ha!"
If someone wants to sale their first pipe for $10,000, go for it. If no one buys it, then it was too high. If someone does buy, it was priced perfectly. If you cannot afford it, just quietly keep walking. I cannot afford a pipe made by one of my best friends, so what. He sales the hell out of them. And, anyone who would complain about his prices looks like a fool. ha ha, and yes, I will admit to being a fool, ha ha.
Once again, what is it worth? It is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. And, there is always someone out there that will drop $500 on a pair of tennis shoes, or a toaster, or spend a thousand on a meal. So, price is relative.

 

[sparrowhawk]

An anecdote to share. I'm not a pipe maker, but I [/i]am an artist with publishing credentials to prove it. Look below:

 

[sparrowhawk]

A dozen or so years ago, I had drawn this after six months work with an ink pen about the size of a couple of microns, about the size a a human blood cell. When asked to show it for sale in a gallery show, I gave it a price I deemed too high for anyone in their right mind to buy, $1600, because I really didn't want to see it sold. First night of the show, 45 minutes in, I was standing in front of the wall that displayed my drawings, chatting with another artist (it was a group show) and said to him, "there's no way anyone's going to spend that kind of money for an ink drawing." Then the assistant manager walked up and put the familiar red sticker next to the drawing, "Rooftop Dancers." My jaw hit the floor. No other work sold that night. Years later, the owner would tell me her family routinely argued who would get "Dancers" when she passed away.

I can't begin to assess how many hours I spent on "Rooftop Dancers" over six months, but it must have been well over 100 man hours. In this thread, draw what conclusions you will.

 

[sablebrush52]

Actually he got the same problems like many newbie carvers, e.g. a tight mortise in dry season, not so well cured briar (it's actually well cured but not as good as Tokutomi san)

I do find this interesting. It suggests to me why I wouldn't spend a lot of money for a newbie pipemaker, no matter how pretty the carving is. It's all part of the craft.