19 July 1918
- Thread starter Akousticplyr
- Start date
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One of my passions is history and World War One was such an utter, horrible, avoidable catastrophe.
If the Archduke’s driver hadn’t made a wrong turn, or if Kaiser Bill (who was far more full of loud mouthed bluster than actual malice) had not given Austria Hungary a blank check, or if Czar Nicolas had not ordered mobilization first or even if Germany had just mobilized against Russia, and not invaded Belgium, all the horrors and waste of the war to end all wars would not have happened in 1914. Maybe some other event would have ignited the world into a war, but not the assassination of an Archduke and his wife, but later and not then.
And perhaps not ever.
If the Archduke’s driver hadn’t made a wrong turn, or if Kaiser Bill (who was far more full of loud mouthed bluster than actual malice) had not given Austria Hungary a blank check, or if Czar Nicolas had not ordered mobilization first or even if Germany had just mobilized against Russia, and not invaded Belgium, all the horrors and waste of the war to end all wars would not have happened in 1914. Maybe some other event would have ignited the world into a war, but not the assassination of an Archduke and his wife, but later and not then.
And perhaps not ever.
I think there is still debate on whether it was a 'wrong turn' or not.
As for your picture @Akousticplyr thanks for posting it! Usually I see pictures of average soldiers in the trenches with their beat up pipes, not an officer like this.
The dapper officer with his nice pipe and the kitty cat on the shell were posed for purposes of morale (propaganda) in an area where no counter battery fire was likely. The man and the cat are long dust now, but that shell was one of over one and half billion fired on the Western Front and might still be a dangerous piece of unexploded ordinance today.
Without World War One, the Russian Empire surely would not have collapsed in 1917 and Stalin and Lenin might have grown old and died anonymously. Adolf Hitler would have not volunteered. There would have been no Gallipoli to bring down Winston Churchill.
All history as we know it depended not only on a teenager murdering an Archduke and his much insulted and scorned wife at Sarajevo but how the two autocrats who ruled Germany and Russia played their hands. Kaiser Wilhelm should have restrained Austria Hungary and Russia should have demanded Serbia account for their role in regicide.
For the best book I’ve ever read on the avoidably of a general European war in 1914 I recommend Guns of August by Barbara Tuchman.
The Guns of August - Wikipedia - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guns_of_August
It’s worth the read just for the story of the flight of the Goeben and Breslau and the most incredible accomplishment of one naval commander and two ships in the history of naval warfare.
If not for Admiral Souchon’s correct decision to steam towards the Dardanelles instead of the safety of the Austrian battle fleet, Czar Nicolas might have died in his bed still ruler of Russia.
Tuchman’s Guns of August is indeed a terrific book, as is her Proud Tower. Another truly wonderful book that covers similar ground (it’s actually focused on the naval arms race between England and Germany in the years leading up to 1914) is Robert Massie’s Dreadnaught. I can’t recommend the Massie book highly enough.
In the entire history of naval warfare there is no more gripping saga than when Hipper’s light cruiser Elbing sent two destroyers to investigate a Dutch ship blowing off steam and they ran headlong into Beatty’s screen of cruisers, and HMS Galatea opens fire at 2:48 pm on June 1, 1916.
Hipper recalls his light screening forces and orders the run to the South, and Beatty takes the bait.
What if had been perfect Zeppelin weather?
Sheer could have reversed course and headed home for the Jade knowing the entire Grand Fleet was bearing down on him.
What if Lion had blown up like Indefatigable and Queen Mary?
If there is a heaven and they let me see anything I want to see, I want to be in a Zeppelin high above the Battle of Jutland.
The nations of the world commissioned just over one hundred dreadnaught type battleships and battle cruisers. 37 British and 21 German dreadnaught ships, 58 in total, clashed at Jutland. The British ought to have left their armored cruisers at home but the 6 German pre dreadnaught battleships proved useful, although they slowed Sheer’s speed.
One more what if.
What if Jellicoe had not felt the weight of empire on his shoulders and turned away from the torpedo attack?
Jutland might have ended up a close range brawl like Tsushima or Trafalgar, and the Germans might have got lucky. Torpedoes could have sunk or mission killed a third of Jellicoe’s ships and superior German shells and inferior British armor protection the rest.
If by chance Sheer had annihilated the Grand Fleet, a long chance to be sure, then World War One might have ended in 1916 by a negotiated peace.
Russia might have kept the Czars.
There might have not been a rematch 25 years later.
What if?
A different era, and I don't wish to derail the thread, but have you read her A Distant Mirror? It's astonishing. I've read Proud Tower but not Guns of August, I'll try and pick up a copy.
I’ve read all three, but Guns of August and The March of Folly are her two most quoted works.
Guns of August is likely the best non fiction book ever written. If it’s not number one it’s on all the top five lists.
I envy you reason it for the first time.
I just ordered Guns of August, thanks for the recommendation. I am looking forward to reading it.
My maternal grandfather fought in WWI (and was also a POW), and this is a subject of personal interest for me. Looking back as an adult I can see some aspects of his personality that were likely a result of the trauma he endured.
Another book rec is The First World War: Unseen Glass Plate Photographs of the Western Front by Carl De Keyzer and David Van Reybrouck. It's an expensive book, but it is also extraordinary.
My maternal grandfather fought in WWI (and was also a POW), and this is a subject of personal interest for me. Looking back as an adult I can see some aspects of his personality that were likely a result of the trauma he endured.
Another book rec is The First World War: Unseen Glass Plate Photographs of the Western Front by Carl De Keyzer and David Van Reybrouck. It's an expensive book, but it is also extraordinary.
Here is my Uncles army cap who survived the whole of WW1, this is the one who was not in the machine gun corp but managed to slog through the Western Front from 1914-18. Saw the Christmas Truce in 1914 and took the view that the whole damn show was a terrible waste of lives that achieved the square root of sod all!
My Maternal Grandfather was a US Marine in France during WW1, Reaves Leander Murphy, He survived, or I would not be posting this now. YMMV.I guess you wouldn't expect anything less from an Irishman Thank you Grand Daddy Murphy!!!
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An ironic picture of a man and his cat during a time of war.
I read Guns of August after seeing this thread. It's quite good.
Also, I can think of at least three of my professors who had read the book multiple times based on their lectures....
Also, I can think of at least three of my professors who had read the book multiple times based on their lectures....
In her book Ms. Tuchman's wrote: "One constant among the elements of 1914—as of any era—was the disposition of everyone on all sides not to prepare for the harder alternative, not to act upon what they suspected to be true."
This brings to mind a quote from Vladimir Nabokov: "Complacency is a state of mind that exists only in retrospective: it has to be shattered before being ascertained."
This brings to mind a quote from Vladimir Nabokov: "Complacency is a state of mind that exists only in retrospective: it has to be shattered before being ascertained."
World War One is merely an historical abstraction to anyone alive today.
Watch someone's face at a massive stadium football game when they are told to look around---truly take in all they can see---and that the number of casualties on the first day of a particular WWI battle was equal to the everyone in the stadium.
And another battle that went on for a while---fought for no reason except stubbornness and pride on both sides---killed a third of a million.
And THAT ^^^^ level of insanity not only did not give people pause, but World War Two was essentially a resumption of WWI after a 20 year break, taken so that a new generation of soldiers could be grown by the combatants.
A resumption that would---knowingly---be fought with still more destructive weapons.
Welcome to Planet Earth.
Pipes and dogs and cats, yes. Humans not so much.
Watch someone's face at a massive stadium football game when they are told to look around---truly take in all they can see---and that the number of casualties on the first day of a particular WWI battle was equal to the everyone in the stadium.
And another battle that went on for a while---fought for no reason except stubbornness and pride on both sides---killed a third of a million.
And THAT ^^^^ level of insanity not only did not give people pause, but World War Two was essentially a resumption of WWI after a 20 year break, taken so that a new generation of soldiers could be grown by the combatants.
A resumption that would---knowingly---be fought with still more destructive weapons.
Welcome to Planet Earth.
Pipes and dogs and cats, yes. Humans not so much.
@georged: An interesting point but for our family still very recent history. The last player in that insane game who was an Uncle of mine only died in the mid 1980s. I grew up listening to stories about WW1 from numerous relatives as if it was only yesterday. In many regards it is more real to me than WW2 that my Father fought in and in which the Germans seem to have had better line in uniforms!
I had heard from historians that many parts of the story where later dramatized in fiction and lot of those little details became part of the myth. I think the whole wrong turn thing was one of them. But I can't say what details for certain.
It is also statistically plausible that the very pipe in that photograph is either presently owned by a member of his forum or soon will be after its discovered in someone’s attic and finds it’s way onto eBay.