Feedback Loop Disintegration, Anyone?

[HeadMisfit]

critical thinking is to hard for 95% of the population these days.

To do critical thinking requires a person to toss off the politcal thought yoke, and that is an impossibility for most people. Because the political thought yoke is EVERYTHING to them.

 

[PLANofMAN]

It's gonna rot peoples' brains out. But Skynet-nah, not going to happen.

Amazon is rolling out a.i. management in their warehouses to make sorting more efficient. It will also monitor workers and give them feedback on their performance. I believe that newer facilities have already incorporated this technology into their operations, and a hyper-focused, specialized a.i. build is a far cry from the generic one-size-fits-all a.i. like ChatGPT or Grok.

If businesses are starting to do this, it's a guarantee that governments have already been doing this for a decade or more. NSA's Echelon has been officially acknowledged, correct? Think about what hasn't been acknowledged.

 

[georged]

Humans have existed for several million years.

As animals went, they weren't fast, or strong, or have big claws or fangs, or any of that.

Yet they managed to survive and prevail over those that did. We should have been lunch for such predators---easy to catch and couldn't fight back---but we weren't.

Why? Because we were clever, had built-in manual manipulators, and we discovered that cooperating in groups massively increased our ability to survive.

Anyone born who did NOT have the drive to be in a group was quickly removed from the gene pool by the environment.

Evolution did the rest.

Meaning, the grouping instinct---the urge to be part of a tribe---is is not only still present, it is a powerful, non-stop, need-drive that never wavers and affects absolutely everything.

It's how the vast majority of people make decisions.

Facts don't matter, arguments don't matter, evidence doesn't matter. Only making a choice that won't get you kicked out of your tribe matters.

The end.

 

[HeadMisfit]

Humans have existed for several million years.

As animals went, they weren't fast, or strong, or have big claws or fangs, or any of that.

Yet they managed to survive and prevail over those that did. We should have been lunch for such predators---easy to catch and couldn't fight back---but we weren't.

Why? Because we were clever, had built-in manual manipulators, and we discovered that cooperating in groups massively increased our ability to survive.

Anyone born who did NOT have the drive to be in a group was quickly removed from the gene pool by the environment.

Evolution did the rest.

Meaning, the grouping instinct---the urge to be part of a tribe---is is not only still present, it is a powerful, non-stop, need-drive that never wavers and affects absolutely everything.

It's how the vast majority of people make decisions.

Facts don't matter, arguments don't matter, evidence doesn't matter. Only making a choice that won't get you kicked out of your tribe matters.

The end.

lol the "tribe" offers me free things so I dont kick THEM in the collective ass.

 

[BingBong]

Humans have existed for several million years.

As animals went, they weren't fast, or strong, or have big claws or fangs, or any of that.

Yet they managed to survive and prevail over those that did. We should have been lunch for such predators---easy to catch and couldn't fight back---but we weren't.

Why? Because we were clever, had built-in manual manipulators, and we discovered that cooperating in groups massively increased our ability to survive.

Anyone born who did NOT have the drive to be in a group was quickly removed from the gene pool by the environment.

Evolution did the rest.

Meaning, the grouping instinct---the urge to be part of a tribe---is is not only still present, it is a powerful, non-stop, need-drive that never wavers and affects absolutely everything.

It's how the vast majority of people make decisions.

Facts don't matter, arguments don't matter, evidence doesn't matter. Only making a choice that won't get you kicked out of your tribe matters.

The end.

What did the Romans ever do for us?

 

[Richmond B. Funkenhouser]

At this point about the only thing that can save us from this shit is if the power went out for an extended period... and yep, that would nearly us it too.

Some kind of cycle is playing out and it can't be stopped. IMO

 

[sablebrush52]

Humans have existed for several million years.

As animals went, they weren't fast, or strong, or have big claws or fangs, or any of that.

Yet they managed to survive and prevail over those that did. We should have been lunch for such predators---easy to catch and couldn't fight back---but we weren't.

Why? Because we were clever, had built-in manual manipulators, and we discovered that cooperating in groups massively increased our ability to survive.

Anyone born who did NOT have the drive to be in a group was quickly removed from the gene pool by the environment.

Evolution did the rest.

Meaning, the grouping instinct---the urge to be part of a tribe---is is not only still present, it is a powerful, non-stop, need-drive that never wavers and affects absolutely everything.

It's how the vast majority of people make decisions.

Facts don't matter, arguments don't matter, evidence doesn't matter. Only making a choice that won't get you kicked out of your tribe matters.

The end.

Well, George, assuming that the tribal imperative overrides all other human concerns, a supposition that I see validated in politics, given the simplistic stupidity that currently dominates and defines the field, it might well be time for Sapiens to do the right thing and die off so that the rest of the lifeforms can move on and perhaps evolve into a more successful adaptation.

Perhaps AI, since it is a product of human "ingenuity", will engineer our extinction in the near future, as has been pondered by its godfather. It seems a worthy goal, for the sake of other life on earth.

 

[GKChesterton]

If the schizos are right. Earth's due a solar flare in the late 30s to 40s. Pray for it.

 

[HeadMisfit]

If the schizos are right. Earth's due a solar flare in the late 30s to 40s. Pray for it.

but if it takes out technology, 99% of the world population wouldnt know becasue they couldnt get the info on youtube

 

[brooklynpiper]

@georged

Had a recent mandatory training in AI at work.

One of the modules was about prompting and said one could chat with the AI about how best to prompt the AI...

Part of the training was trying it. I noticed when I started typing the AI started suggesting the next word.

So: the AI was trying to help me type a question to ask it a question about how I should ask it a question.

 

[PiperdownCan]

I take exception to the notion that there needs to be a gatekeeper of knowledge that bestows the the ability to think critically. While I certainly do hold that education is the key to health, happiness and a free society, I also believe that most of us are born with an innate ability to navigate information and discern the path forward.

My mother, who had no education beyond high school, was one of the best critical thinkers that I've ever met. She was a hospital lab technician and every day, the results of her work could make or break hundreds of people's lives. This was in the pre-computer era, when all her work, although performed on instruments, had to be carefully analyzed and observed for extraneous influences like human error, bad reagents or faulty equipment. There was a lot of troubleshooting involved when controls didn't come out right and doctors and patients were awaiting results. She got her critical thinking skills from her parents, neither of which had any formal education beyond the Talmud and Torah, but were fierce skeptics.

So, while critical thinking skills can (and should) certainly be taught, too often I've seen it wrapped up with ideology. I work in higher ed. Time and time again I've seen professors hold themselves up as the gatekeepers to critical thought, much like the bridge troll in The Holy Grail. And yet, some of the smartest and most able-minded people that I've met, troubleshooters, investigators and reporters, have no formal training in critical thought. Conversely, I've met plenty of people who fancy themselves intellectuals and critical thinkers simply because, like the scarecrow in Oz, they've been told that they are.

I agree with you and I think the problem with the way we’re talking about “critical thinking“ here is that it’s somehow in opposition with emotion, or the natural state of human thinking. This kind of definition is a super narrow slice of human rationality that only applies to very technical tasks, and its not the kind of critical thinking our ancestors have been doing for centuries.

There’s an entire universe of subtleties around human intelligence and its not a brute computational power phenomenon, for instance humans are still much more capable of general intelligence than AI because we can ignore most of the information surrounding us and focus on what is “obvious”. Nothing is obvious to AI, that’s a huge unsolved problem for AI.

 

[BingBong]

If the schizos are right. Earth's due a solar flare in the late 30s to 40s. Pray for it.

Pretty sure I ain't going to be here by then, so I don't factor it in beyond curiosity.

 

[sardonicus87]

I agree with you and I think the problem with the way we’re talking about “critical thinking“ here is that it’s somehow in opposition with emotion, or the natural state of human thinking. This kind of definition is a super narrow slice of human rationality that only applies to very technical tasks, and its not the kind of critical thinking our ancestors have been doing for centuries.

There’s an entire universe of subtleties around human intelligence and its not a brute computational power phenomenon, for instance humans are still much more capable of general intelligence than AI because we can ignore most of the information surrounding us and focus on what is “obvious”. Nothing is obvious to AI, that’s a huge unsolved problem for AI.

I mean, Critical Thinking does have a specific and narrow meaning though, which is not antithetical or oppositional to emotion per se, but must not itself be emotionally based... that just is what it always has been. Having said that, the same is true for critical thinking of ignoring emotions, or of being pure logic-based or ignoring logic. Critical though, in other words, isn't about emotions or logic necessarily, and is slightly metacognitive and must be purposefully done, and does take effort, and is not some kind of natural or intuitive process.

Critical thinking - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Critical thinking is the process of analyzing available facts, evidence, observations, and arguments to make sound conclusions or informed choices. It involves recognizing underlying assumptions, providing justifications for ideas and actions, evaluating these justifications through comparisons with varying perspectives, and assessing their rationality and potential consequences.[1] The goal of critical thinking is to form a judgment through the application of rational, skeptical, and unbiased analyses and evaluation.[2] In modern times, the use of the phrase critical thinking can be traced to John Dewey, who used the phrase reflective thinking,[3] which depends on the knowledge base of an individual; the excellence of critical thinking in which an individual can engage varies according to it.[4] According to philosopher Richard W. Paul, critical thinking and analysis are competencies that can be learned or trained.[5] The application of critical thinking includes self-directed, self-disciplined, self-monitored, and self-corrective habits of the mind,[6] as critical thinking is not a natural process; it must be induced, and ownership of the process must be taken for successful questioning and reasoning.[4] Critical thinking presupposes a rigorous commitment to overcome egocentrism and sociocentrism,[7] that leads to a mindful command of effective communication and problem solving.

 

[BingBong]

I mean, Critical Thinking does have a specific and narrow meaning though, which is not antithetical or oppositional to emotion per se, but must not itself be emotionally based... that just is what it always has been. Having said that, the same is true for critical thinking of ignoring emotions, or of being pure logic-based or ignoring logic. Critical though, in other words, isn't about emotions or logic necessarily, and is slightly metacognitive and must be purposefully done, and does take effort, and is not some kind of natural or intuitive process.

Critical thinking - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's akin to using a negative feedback loop in amplification, say, to stabilise and clean up the signal. Nonsense and noise falls by the wayside.

It has been blatantly obvious over the last few years that governments and such have abandoned the mechanism entirely, leaving us to apply our own filters.

 

[PiperdownCan]

I mean, Critical Thinking does have a specific and narrow meaning though, which is not antithetical or oppositional to emotion per se, but must not itself be emotionally based... that just is what it always has been. Having said that, the same is true for critical thinking of ignoring emotions, or of being pure logic-based or ignoring logic. Critical though, in other words, isn't about emotions or logic necessarily, and is slightly metacognitive and must be purposefully done, and does take effort, and is not some kind of natural or intuitive process.

Critical thinking - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I understand what you’re describing, and I agree about your usage of Critical Thinking as far as it is a learned skill for a specific task. I was intending to respond to the modern attitude that is something like ‘thinking that is not Critical Thinking is to be dismissed as not in touch with reality’, which to me smacks of “The Science” type attitudes. I’m not accusing you of that btw, I agree about the value of critical thinking as long as were talking about metacognitive type reflection and self correction, not narrowly Scientific thinking.

This gets into a realm of facts and values, etc. that is a very long discussion but I’ll just say that I think we’re standing on unsteady ground when we forget about everything that is presupposed by ‘logical’ or ‘critical’ thinking because much is dependant upon embodied experience that we set aside when we start to do scientific endeavours.

 

[Pypkė]

It has been blatantly obvious over the last few years that governments and such have abandoned the mechanism entirely, leaving us to apply our own filters.

What seems blatantly obvious to me is that governments and authorities often thrust dichotomies onto the populace, who accept them. Choose this, or that...it's the only way... I'm not going into examples. Real critical thinking gets you out of the "dichotomy rabbit hole."

 

[VDL_Piper]

Won't have to wait long anyway because this big gadget is coming and I doubt it has time for Politicians and their agendas.

 

[sardonicus87]

I understand what you’re describing, and I agree about your usage of Critical Thinking as far as it is a learned skill for a specific task. I was intending to respond to the modern attitude that is something like ‘thinking that is not Critical Thinking is to be dismissed as not in touch with reality’, which to me smacks of “The Science” type attitudes. I’m not accusing you of that btw, I agree about the value of critical thinking as long as were talking about metacognitive type reflection and self correction, not narrowly Scientific thinking.

This gets into a realm of facts and values, etc. that is a very long discussion but I’ll just say that I think we’re standing on unsteady ground when we forget about everything that is presupposed by ‘logical’ or ‘critical’ thinking because much is dependant upon embodied experience that we set aside when we start to do scientific endeavours.

Yeah, there's definitely a lot of people that treat science like a religion and dogmatically adhere to it (or what they think it says) without themselves also doing science or understanding it, and definitely without any critical thinking.

They're what the "New Atheist" types a la Hitchens, Harris and Dawkins and the like, became (all of whom have absolutely crap arguments for their positions, and I say this as an atheist myself, their arguments against religion or for atheism are bad arguments, but that's not relevant here).

But that lead to a type of person that posits "because science" (which they don't even know) in opposition to emotion or religion. "Scientism" kind of replaced that movement. It's just the same dogmatic, uncritical, moralizing, grandstanding dumb ass behavior as "but I feel..." or "but God/'The Bible' says...".

All the same shit, just with a different paint job.

 

[K.E. Powell]

My opposition to AI, as with most new and untested technologies, isn't with the tech itself; that AI is inefficient and poorly understood is natural since it is a novelty, and like most technologies, it is reasonable to assume it will be better and more efficient in time. Rather, my opposition is with who uses it and how.

As it currently stands, AI is mostly another (poorly disguised) Trojan Horse meant to aid large corporations, information brokers, and government bureaucracies better track and predict human behavior so such can be more readily exploited. That AI, even in this early stage, can have socially and individually useful functions is apparent, e.g. it being used to aid doctors more quickly and reliably diagnose patients or help teachers dispense with drudgery so more time can be devoted to their students. But by and large, the people that most advocate for its expansion are the ones most likely to profit from it and most likely to use it in incredibly unethical ways.

This doesn't even touch on the fact that AI demands enormous resources. In my home state of West Virginia, our carpetbagger governor--to say nothing of most of our congress--quickly opened the door for AI companies to build data centers in the poorest regions of our state, despite heavy opposition from their constituents, both Democrat and Republican. One such data center is slated to be placed in Mingo county, one of the poorest counties not only in WV, but in the entire Union. This boondoggle promises few permanent jobs, demands massive water use and strain on an already strained grid, and will likely further destroy the surrounding environs. I could go on, but I think one gets the picture.

As for critical thinking, well, I touched on this before, but to give the Cliff Notes version of what I said earlier: it is a skill, but one that is innate. Like anyone born with a healthy body can throw a ball, so too can anyone with a healthy brain think critically. But the only ones who get good at either are those who practice doggedly, often with the help of others. As for AI encouraging a willingness to avoid thinking for oneself, I, too, share that concern, but fellas, that ship has long since sailed.

 

[HeadMisfit]

lol AI caters to the fools, the low brow, the morons that are incapable of thought. Once upon a time a person was expected to actually think, now it is all "groupthink indoctrination".

Kids have been taught liberal thought policy in schools since the 1980s. I went to a school that switched to the "chicago method" in the mid 90s.

To illustrate how that worked, if you have a gun, you are supposed to call 911 and let your mugger stab you and just wait for the police to come do something to help you. Instead of just USING your gun.

We are way past the "4 legs good, 2 legs better" bull shit of Animal Farm.