A Question On Types of Burley

[Effortlessdepths]

Rougaroux came in today, so opulent and lovely. Can't wait to get some Simply Red, which will round out my Virginia collection for my daytime smokes.

I've been missing the particular feeling of Burley nicotine, however, so I enjoyed a bowl of C&D Burley Ribbon and it hit that specific "spot" in my brain chemistry.

Now I've lit a bowl of Picayune, and my goodness the rush is exquisite. Nothing like it that I've ever tried, and with a dry twist only perique and Turkish can bring.

But my question is, why does it hit so much harder? It says there is "dark air-cured" burley as the base, but what is the difference between that and the burleys in the C&D Burley Ribbon? What differences in curing, varietal?

As Picayune is discontinued (and I only have a pound or so left), I have some hope of concocting a blend with the C&D Burley with Izmir, Perique and some Virginias. Hoping it has a similar feeling and taste profile, but it seems it will lack the oomph a bit, which is okay.

 

[Strange Quark]

Picayune has Green River leaf or similar Dark Air Cured in it, not burley from what I recall. I have come across references to Green River Burley but I think that is a misnomer due to both varieties being air-cured. Green River/DAC is a much more thick and coarse tobacco than the usual burley types, more similar to Connecticut Broadleaf although I don't know if they are more closely related. And the nicotine level in Green River is rather high, around 7%. It is also used to make perique. I think you can buy similar whole leaf as Dark Air Cured. Buying whole leaf especially air cured varieties from my experience is they are somewhat harsh. I do remember Picayune was a bit overwhelming for me.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I am not "in depth" familiar with these store made blends, but I do know that the reason the absorption rate differences between Virginias and burleys is the PH. Virginias are mostly used in cigarettes because the acidity makes the nicotine easier to be absorbed into the lungs. They do not absorb easily through the sinuses or the small blood vessels of the mouth. Burleys being a slightly higher PH absorbs very easily. And, the way the burley is cured also affects the rate of absorption, because it affects the PH.

Virginias are a staple for many pipesmokers because of taste. We tend to like that natural sweetness, and for many nicotine is merely a side benefit, more than a reason to smoke.

If you want taste and nicotine, you might try some of the GH offerings like some of their Virginia twists that use the Imperial Virginias... which are not technically Virginias as we know them in the US.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Oh, and also... even though burleys typically allow their nicotines to be more easily absorbed, casings will make the nicotine less absorbable also.

 

[khiddy]

Are there any replacements/good substitutions for D&R Picayune? I came back to pipes after it was long gone from the market, and have only had a few bowls' worth, but found it to be delightful for its strength and taste. Are there suggestions from more experienced smokers for similar alternatives?

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Are there any replacements/good substitutions for D&R Picayune? I came back to pipes after it was long gone from the market, and have only had a few bowls' worth, but found it to be delightful for its strength and taste. Are there suggestions from more experienced smokers for similar alternatives?

There isn't going to be anything EXACTLY like it, but Bayou Morning (not the flake) is going to be about as close as I can think of.

 

[sardonicus87]

And just a side-note, burley isn't actually a varietal, nor is Virginia or oriental... they're all the same plant, it's the growing conditions that makes them what they are. If you buy "burley seeds" and you plant them in a virginia growing environment, your first crop will be something between a VA and burley and if you take those seeds and replant them, the next crop will be a VA crop. That's why you don't typically see burley grown in the Carolinas or Virginia, not the right growing conditions. It's also why you can't just grow a particular type in your backyard, unless you can mimic the growing conditions of the original.

And by extension, that means there also aren't different varietals of burley. That's partly why Semois can only be grown in the Andes valley in Belgium, because of the unique growing conditions. If you took Semois seeds and grew them elsewhere, you wouldn't get Semois, you'd get something Semois adjacent and over two or three growing seasons, it wouldn't be Semois anymore.

The growing conditions have a huge effect on the natural nicotine levels and related compounds (such as MAOIs like nornicotine, which affect how the nicotine acts in the brain), and curing processes have different effects on the nicotine content (always reducing overall nicotine levels, but some processes more than others). Aside from raw nicotine content, growing conditions and curing also affects levels of sugars and pH which affects how readily that available nicotine is absorbed.

Why some blends hit harder despite being "the same" is because they're not the same. Even burley from the same farm but a different year with different weather will hit differently, despite being the same genetic line. There's a whole host of factors as to why one will "hit harder" than another that you can't pinpoint to a single cause.

 

[The Benedictine]

And just a side-note, burley isn't actually a varietal, nor is Virginia or oriental... they're all the same plant, it's the growing conditions that makes them what they are. If you buy "burley seeds" and you plant them in a virginia growing environment, your first crop will be something between a VA and burley and if you take those seeds and replant them, the next crop will be a VA crop. That's why you don't typically see burley grown in the Carolinas or Virginia, not the right growing conditions. It's also why you can't just grow a particular type in your backyard, unless you can mimic the growing conditions of the original.

And by extension, that means there also aren't different varietals of burley. That's partly why Semois can only be grown in the Andes valley in Belgium, because of the unique growing conditions. If you took Semois seeds and grew them elsewhere, you wouldn't get Semois, you'd get something Semois adjacent and over two or three growing seasons, it wouldn't be Semois anymore.

The growing conditions have a huge effect on the natural nicotine levels and related compounds (such as MAOIs like nornicotine, which affect how the nicotine acts in the brain), and curing processes have different effects on the nicotine content (always reducing overall nicotine levels, but some processes more than others). Aside from raw nicotine content, growing conditions and curing also affects levels of sugars and pH which affects how readily that available nicotine is absorbed.

Why some blends hit harder despite being "the same" is because they're not the same. Even burley from the same farm but a different year with different weather will hit differently, despite being the same genetic line. There's a whole host of factors as to why one will "hit harder" than another that you can't pinpoint to a single cause.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

And just a side-note, burley isn't actually a varietal, nor is Virginia or oriental... they're all the same plant

Actually, they are all different varietals, in that you can buy semois seeds and grow it here, and it will be identical to what is grown in Belgium. The problem comes from the second generation. Then those seed will show a small variant in the qualities.

I used to grow Semois in Alabama, and it was identical to what I could buy. The seeds actually came from the same farm.

And, you can buy several different "bright leaf" varietals, which is what Virginias are actual called. And, you can buy a whole slew of different burley seed stocks.

They are all the same DNA, in that a Chihuahua and a Great Dane will have very similar DNA, but yet they are not the same breed of dog. Burley and Virginia will both have tobacco DNA, but be of different breeds (or varietals) of tobacco.

All modern seed stock comes from either the Orinoco or Rustica varietals. But, you'd have a hard time planting them in a historical field in Virginia, in hopes of getting a Bright leaf to evolve. It would be a Quixotic endeavor.

But, yeh, Virginias are not Orientals. They evolved from burleys being grown in sand (basically, poor soil conditions) until they had developed very mild and almost no taste). It was basically unsalable on any tobacco market... until a barn full of the worthless tobacco caught on fire, and a slave discovered that the leaf that was heated, but did not burn, actually had developed a sweet taste. Then flu-curing was discovered.

Another visible difference between bright leaf and burleys is the way the leaf sets on the stalks. It is a slight difference, but when you look out at a field of them, it becomes apparent.
Those imperial "Virginias" such as African Dark Virginias have absolutely no characteristics even close to what we know of as Virginias or Bright leaf. They are a straight up burley that has been flu cured, and then GH markets them as Virginias. They would probably be better categorized as flu cured, instead of Virginias... but Virginias aren't actually a category anyways, so... What we call Virginias are categorized in seed stock as Brightleaf...
anyways, I digress.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

To be clear... it is the second generation from any seed stock that makes the initial evolution.
This carries over into a misconception in backyard gardening also. It is a wives tale that planting banana peppers or bell peppers near jalapenos or cayenne will make the bells or bananas have a hot taste. No, it absolutely does not. But, the second generation from those peppers will start to have crossovers in flavors.

Jalapenos grown from the same seed stock all over the world will be almost exactly the same. But, if the seeds from those are planted the next season, then yes, they will also be different based on the location they were grown.

This is why first generation Cuban cigar seed stock does so well for companies in Nicaragua. Their cigar leaf will be fantastic, as long as they do not plant the second generation seeds.

 

[makhorkasmoker]

To be clear... it is the second generation from any seed stock that makes the initial evolution.
This carries over into a misconception in backyard gardening also. It is a wives tale that planting banana peppers or bell peppers near jalapenos or cayenne will make the bells or bananas have a hot taste. No, it absolutely does not. But, the second generation from those peppers will start to have crossovers in flavors.

Jalapenos grown from the same seed stock all over the world will be almost exactly the same. But, if the seeds from those are planted the next season, then yes, they will also be different based on the location they were grown.

This is why first generation Cuban cigar seed stock does so well for companies in Nicaragua. Their cigar leaf will be fantastic, as long as they do not plant the second generation seeds.

Thank you for those posts. I would like to add that serious heirloom gardeners/farmers, whether of tobacco or vegetables, go to a lot of trouble to prevent seeds from cross-pollinating to preserve the line.

 

[sardonicus87]

Then it's not a varietal by definition, varietals are stable year after year/generation after generation. A varietal isn't different enough from the parent species to be a separate species, but it's particular gene expression and combinations. Not unlike dog breeds, where a breed is a breed if it can be bred with another of the same breed and produce the same kind of dog... but they're all still the same species. Breed a yorkie to a yorkie and you get a yorkie. Breed a yorkie and shi tzu and you get a shorkie. A shorkie isn't a stable breed, if you breed a shorkie to a shorkie, you don't get another shorkie, you get a variety that's more like one or the other, you might get a few that's like a shorkie, but some will be more like a yorkie or a shi tzu.

With plants, varietals can cross with other varietals of the same species, but a varietal will come back the same every rear regardless of where it's grown or the environment (as long as the environment is suitable for it to grow as a perennial). Varietal is a "sub species" within a species. A cultivar, which is the same thing as a varietal, just patented, must be stable to be patentable.

There was an article about all what I was talking about not long ago on Smoking Pipes, including interview with Jeremy Reeves about this stuff: https://www.smokingpipes.com/smokin...nvironment-impacts-tobacco-growth-cultivation

Even though the term "varietal" is used, that's not an accurate term, "variety" would be more accurate, but varietal is a specific thing. Even the scientist they quote in the article doesn't use the term "varietal" but rather, "variety".

 

[khiddy]

Then it's not a varietal by definition, varietals are stable year after year/generation after generation. A varietal isn't different enough from the parent species to be a separate species, but it's particular gene expression and combinations. Not unlike dog breeds, where a breed is a breed if it can be bred with another of the same breed and produce the same kind of dog... but they're all still the same species. Breed a yorkie to a yorkie and you get a yorkie. Breed a yorkie and shi tzu and you get a shorkie. A shorkie isn't a stable breed, if you breed a shorkie to a shorkie, you don't get another shorkie, you get a variety that's more like one or the other, you might get a few that's like a shorkie, but some will be more like a yorkie or a shi tzu.

With plants, varietals can cross with other varietals of the same species, but a varietal will come back the same every rear regardless of where it's grown or the environment (as long as the environment is suitable for it to grow as a perennial). Varietal is a "sub species" within a species. A cultivar, which is the same thing as a varietal, just patented, must be stable to be patentable.

There was an article about all what I was talking about not long ago on Smoking Pipes, including interview with Jeremy Reeves about this stuff: https://www.smokingpipes.com/smokin...nvironment-impacts-tobacco-growth-cultivation

Even though the term "varietal" is used, that's not an accurate term, "variety" would be more accurate, but varietal is a specific thing. Even the scientist they quote in the article doesn't use the term "varietal" but rather, "variety".

Shitzie would be a far better name for the resulting chimera.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Even though the term "varietal" is used, that's not an accurate term, "variety" would be more accurate, but varietal is a specific thing. Even the scientist they quote in the article doesn't use the term "varietal" but rather, "variety".

That tracks... but dogs and tobaccos are not the same, ha ha. However, as an Anatolian Shepherd owner (or kangal), the same breed of dog after years in the US, do not get as large as the Anatolians in Turkey, and in the Middle East, they have grown to be monster sized. But, that is probably due to other things as well.

But, as we are all aware, even the VaGold25 seed stock grown in the same location year after year will develop differences in tastes. They are slight most of the times, but some year can develop leaps in tastes when the environmental conditions change. Tomatoes and peppers can also.

We also see differences in Cuban cigars from one year to the next.

I think we are saying the same thing, if I am following you correctly, just the terminology is a hang up. Honestly, I haven't checked a botanical dictionary to get an exact definition for "varietal" just using it to explain what makes burleys different from Virginias. The seedstock is obviously different, and that was my point.

 

[InWithBothFeet]

What about children grown in NYC vs West Virginia? Do those turn out differently after the second generation?

 

[cosmicfolklore]

What about children grown in NYC vs West Virginia? Do those turn out differently after the second generation?

The problem with humans is that they go bad so quickly.