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It’s probably hardest to have this kind of conversation if you really take virtues seriously. Because to judge other men and look for lesser qualities in others goes against the very principles we deem them to be.

This is why it is best to relate these principles to allegories stories and poetry. IMO.

If I start pointing fingers and calling names virtue valor and my principles goes out the window. IMO
 
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olkofri

Lifer
Sep 9, 2017
8,066
14,713
The Arm of Orion
I see. In theory that might work. In reality, "The Strong" aren't always the best shepherds.
Yup. It comes down to free will and the conviction to do what is right even when that is to one's disadvantage.

The strong have many flaws, but the weak are not far behind: many tend to shirk responsibility and blame (unjustly) the strong for their misery, which many times is the result of their own vices rather than from any oppression from those in higher stations.
 
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sablebrush52

The Bard Of Barlings
Jun 15, 2013
19,843
45,575
Southern Oregon
jrs457.wixsite.com
Now everyone just has to agree on what constitutes proper "vetting".

Good luck with that.

How about those Dodgers?

Bullshit.

Vetted definition: make a careful and critical examination of (something).

Takes some of the fun out of just quoting fringe psychos as sages.

I'll take responsibility for the shit that I pull. I'm not responsible for the dishonesty or lunacy of others.
 

workman

Lifer
Jan 5, 2018
2,793
4,223
The Faroe Islands
Yup. It comes down to free will and the conviction to do what is right even when that is to one's disadvantage.

The strong have many flaws, but the weak are not far behind: many tend to shirk responsibility and blame (unjustly) the strong for their misery, which many times is the result of their own vices rather than from any oppression from those in higher stations.
That line of thinking is unfamiliar to me. I seldom think of people as weak or strong.
 

workman

Lifer
Jan 5, 2018
2,793
4,223
The Faroe Islands
It’s probably hardest to have this kind of conversation if you really take virtues seriously. Because to judge other men and look for lesser qualities in others goes against the very principles we deem them to be.

This is why it is best to relate these principles to allegories stories and poetry. IMO.

If I start pointing fingers and calling names virtue valor and my principles goes out the window. IMO
Well said. Also, one man's virtue is another man's vice and vice virtue, I mean versa.
 

olkofri

Lifer
Sep 9, 2017
8,066
14,713
The Arm of Orion
That line of thinking is unfamiliar to me. I seldom think of people as weak or strong.
It comes naturally to me, due to my bringing up and training. I know it might sound pompous in an egalitarian milieu, but it's not, really. It's just reality and sometimes you find yourself in the other side of the one you'd like to be.

Case in point, a group of mates here went on a canoe trip through the northlands recently. I so wanted to go, but I couldn't carry 20+ kg of gear plus the canoe when portaging, nor would I be able to paddle for six hours with my present health state and constitution. I am weak and so I had to stay behind. As Inspector Callahan said, 'a man has to know his limitations'.

It woulda been extremely despicable of me to burden my buddies with my own gear and to slow them down with the argument that they 'had to help the weak'.
 
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I don't think any of the strong men in my life... and I was raised by a father who adopted me... and a whole host of uncles, big strong Christian Southern men, none of them every "told" me what it was to be a man.

I had a Grandfather who would set me down in my confusion and he would tell me a story about his experience... an allegory, so to speak. And, it was up to me to connect the dots.

I would watch his brother, my uncle, walk up to a group of men harassing a minority, and I watched him de-escalate a situation. He knew...

I've seen acts of stregnth, charity, compassion, love.
This is how I learned to be a man.
No one told me you gotta... you needta... you shoulda...

And, I never got reprimanded directly, I was made to look at my actions, and sometimes in my realization, I gotta spanking, sometimes I didn't need to, because of shame, humiliation... They knew...

If you don't put humility, compassion above valor and stregnth, and if love isn't above all of that... what the hell is valor and stregnth about? Valor without love can easily become evil.

It's really hard to talk about these sorts of things. And, to make another man feel less is the epitome of what a man should not... but damned my own eyes for saying it. I don't know... sometimes.

This is really hard... I wish my Uncles still walked among us. They knew... Christ knew... Plato knew... I just wish I knew better how to convey these things.
 

workman

Lifer
Jan 5, 2018
2,793
4,223
The Faroe Islands
It comes naturally to me, due to my bringing up and training. I know it might sound pompous in an egalitarian milieu, but it's not, really. It's just reality and sometimes you find yourself in the other side of the one you'd like to be.

Case in point, a group of mates here went on a canoe trip through the northlands recently. I so wanted to go, but I couldn't carry 20+ kg of gear plus the canoe when portaging, nor would I be able to paddle for six hours with my present health state and constitution. I am weak and so I had to stay behind. As Inspector Callahan said, 'a man has to know his limitations'.

It woulda been extremely despicable of me to burden my buddies with my own gear and to slow them down with the argument that they 'had to help the weak'.
It does sound kind of pompous to me, but we come from different cultures I suppose.
The fact that you refrained from going on a trip where you would be a burden doesn't make you weak IMO. Rather the opposite.
 
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workman

Lifer
Jan 5, 2018
2,793
4,223
The Faroe Islands
I don't think any of the strong men in my life... and I was raised by a father who adopted me... and a whole host of uncles, big strong Christian Southern men, none of them every "told" me what it was to be a man.

I had a Grandfather who would set me down in my confusion and he would tell me a story about his experience... an allegory, so to speak. And, it was up to me to connect the dots.

I would watch his brother, my uncle, walk up to a group of men harassing a minority, and I watched him de-escalate a situation. He knew...

I've seen acts of stregnth, charity, compassion, love.
This is how I learned to be a man.
No one told me you gotta... you needta... you shoulda...

And, I never got reprimanded directly, I was made to look at my actions, and sometimes in my realization, I gotta spanking, sometimes I didn't need to, because of shame, humiliation... They knew...

If you don't put humility, compassion above valor and stregnth, and if love isn't above all of that... what the hell is valor and stregnth about? Valor without love can easily become evil.

It's really hard to talk about these sorts of things. And, to make another man feel less is the epitome of what a man should not... but damned my own eyes for saying it. I don't know... sometimes.

This is really hard... I wish my Uncles still walked among us. They knew... Christ knew... Plato knew... I just wish I knew better how to convey these things.
Mr. Know It All is a short story by Stefan Zweig that everyone ought to read. It deals with some of the things you are saying.
And as a son and father I know exactly what you are talking about.
I also wish there was an easier way...
 
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May 2, 2020
4,664
23,772
Louisiana
I don't think any of the strong men in my life... and I was raised by a father who adopted me... and a whole host of uncles, big strong Christian Southern men, none of them every "told" me what it was to be a man.

I had a Grandfather who would set me down in my confusion and he would tell me a story about his experience... an allegory, so to speak. And, it was up to me to connect the dots.

I would watch his brother, my uncle, walk up to a group of men harassing a minority, and I watched him de-escalate a situation. He knew...

I've seen acts of stregnth, charity, compassion, love.
This is how I learned to be a man.
No one told me you gotta... you needta... you shoulda...

And, I never got reprimanded directly, I was made to look at my actions, and sometimes in my realization, I gotta spanking, sometimes I didn't need to, because of shame, humiliation... They knew...

If you don't put humility, compassion above valor and stregnth, and if love isn't above all of that... what the hell is valor and stregnth about? Valor without love can easily become evil.

It's really hard to talk about these sorts of things. And, to make another man feel less is the epitome of what a man should not... but damned my own eyes for saying it. I don't know... sometimes.

This is really hard... I wish my Uncles still walked among us. They knew... Christ knew... Plato knew... I just wish I knew better how to convey these things.
Yeah, you pretty much hit the nail on the head with that post, in my opinion.
 

olkofri

Lifer
Sep 9, 2017
8,066
14,713
The Arm of Orion
It does sound kind of pompous to me, but we come from different cultures I suppose.
The fact that you refrained from going on a trip where you would be a burden doesn't make you weak IMO. Rather the opposite.
Erm, I think your viking ancestors woulda sided with me on this!

Just teasing you man. ;)
 
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