Ultra High Grade Pipes?

Good question Harris - you're on a roll!

Harris, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this, but the pipes you mention are as expensive as they are by virtue of their makers' historical importance, not just the intrinsic quality of the pipes themselves. A Jody Davis pipe, for example, would be just as "high grade" as a Lars Ivarsson, even though Ivarsson is far more famous and historically important. Even if Lars has a slight edge over a Jody Davis or a Larry Roush or whomever in terms of smoking qualities, the huge price difference has little to do with that.
I suspect, for example, that the average Rad Davis pipe smokes as well or better than a Bo Nordh. Even if Ivarsson's and Chonowitsch's pipes did smoke better than most other pipes, the price differential would still be a matter of collectibility not smoking qualities.
I recognize this doesn't answer your question, which is an empirical question, but I wanted to put this out there.

Cigrmaster
I have an Eltang, and IMO, my roush out smokes it 3 to 1. I also have a Manz thy should e here anyway. Is that considered an ultra high grade?

Harris, so are you defining "ultra high grade" in terms of collectibility or smoking qualities or aesthetics or some combination? Or is price a proxy for some combination of those qualities?
On what basis are you deciding that Eltang, for instance is "ultra" and Jody Davis is not? I'm especially curious about how/why you include S. Bang pipes in the ultra high grade category?
Peter Matzhold, Karl Joura, Reiner Barbi, et al. have made some beautiful pipes that could stand head-to-shoulders with most Eltangs and many Chonowitsch or Ivarsson pipes (imho).
What about Jeff Gracik's pipes? Would those be ultra high grade?
Again, I wonder if your distinctions here are being driven by perceived collectibility as much as intrinsic qualities of aesthetics, engineering, fit/finish, etc.

Cigrmaster, I've read many articles and books by people who could afford the ultra high end pipes. The consensus seems to be at around $400.00 to $500.00, the smoking qualities level out. Meaning, after that price point, your're paying for aesthetics, collectibility, rarity and reliability. Not every high end pipe will be a good smoker, but your odds greatly increase after this price point. At least this is what I have gleaned from reading Rick Newcombe, Fred Hanna, Rick Hacker etc.

Cigrmaster
Eltangs pipes may look fantastic and be priced to be so. But the one I have, and the only one I will ever have, is barely worth what I paid. I say "barely" in order to not degrade eltangs work more than that. His pipes do look amazing, but I'm not sure if try are bought by smokers or collectors. I bought mine new, directly from Tom and Pia. There were buffing scratches on the top rim, smooth, that you could see. There were scratches, granted they were light, on the stem, probably from a lack of a good polishing and sanding of the stem. The tenon, was chamfered at the end, but with very noticeable scratches on the end, and the pipe smokes wet as all get out. The bowl coating on the pipe was horrific. Tasted god awful and is near impossible to get out. Bowl coating is a discussion that can be had for days, but I have had great ones, neutral ones, and a horrible one.
Larry's pipes are my favorite to date. I am a clenched, and I do not like heavy pipes. My bent Cutty is not super light, but I clench it for several hours a day and I never even notice it.
Manz pipes are rare as hens teeth. I am waiting on my first one, brand new. I paid less do it then my Roush or Eltamg. $100 bucks less. I have only heard praises from smokers on his pipes. Not collectors, but smokers, so I have ultra high hopes for it

I own one Eltang pipe, and it smokes wonderfully, but in my view no better than my Roush's, Rad's or Cooke's.
One pipemaker that has completely blown me away with how his pipes smoke is Paolo Becker. I just love my three becker pipes - for my money, they punch well above their weight. For pipes that are only in the $300-$600 range, they certainly wouldn't qualify as ultra high grade, but I just can't imagine getting a better smoke from a pipe.
That said, I haven't tried a Bang yet (or the others Harris lists), but I am on the hunt.

I am also basing it on price where top of the line pipes from these makers all sell for well over 5000.00. I am certainly not trying to say my definition is the correct one,

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No, I don't have any problem with that definition, I was just trying to understand how you were using the term. Your definition is perfectly "correct" in so far as you intend the term "ultra high grade" to be understood. Alas, I have no personal experience that would help me answer your opening question ( :crying: ). Again, I definitely concur with the way you group those pipes in terms of how collectible they are and in terms of their prominence among collectors. Those names have a certain cachet that others don't.
I'm as curious as you are to hear from those with more experience with the names you mention.

I have had a Bang, a little quarter bent bulldog, smooth. It was a fantastic smoker, but I think I bought it new, for around $750 shipped. I guess that is considered an ultra high grade, because it was a Bang. But $750 compared to the $3000 pipes we are talking about. Same with Eltang, he has a $500 pipe an also has $5000 pipes. Are they engineered the same or created with the same attention that his higher pipe are?

These days it seems that a carvers reputation pretty much determines his prices.Many of them it seems to me are continually raising prices.It's like they're trying to see just how high they can go before folks stop buying them.I don't know anymore where high grade starts.Not many years ago I thought it was around $300.These days that's just a down payment.

The consensus seems to be at around $400.00 to $500.00, the smoking qualities level out. Meaning, after that price point, your're paying for aesthetics, collectibility, rarity and reliability. Not every high end pipe will be a good smoker, but your odds greatly increase after this price point. At least this is what I have gleaned from reading Rick Newcombe, Fred Hanna, Rick Hacker etc.

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That pretty much sums it up well. It's an incremental degree, but I suppose those degrees can add up to an overall enhancement of the smoking experience. Regarding the semantics and the term "ultra high grade", it's an ever-shifting parameter as well as varying from pipeman to pipeman. Sixten Ivarsson didn't start out making ultra-high-grades but evolved and grew into a true master. I think one day a Rad Davis pipe will be regarded as ultra-high-grade too, although technically it should already be so because his craftmanship & mechanics are already there --- I've yet to experience a Rad Davis, but the overwhelming positive opinions of many many different knowledgeable pipemen ain't nothing to take lightly.
Another good example would be Poul Ilsted, he went from "factory-made" Svendborg's to high-grade and now probably considered ultra-high-grade.
For anyone who hasn't read it, Fred Hanna stirred up a good 'ol controversial shitstorm with this article:

The Myth of Brand and Maker in Pipesmoking
...here's an excerpt:
"Well, what about the great Danish pipes made by renowned makers such as Jess Chonowitsch, Lars Ivarsson, and the two carvers (Ulf and Per) of S. Bang? Once we put aside their tremendous beauty, design, carving precision, and very high prices, we seem to end up with the same result. I have had at least two conversations with a well known collector of ultra high grade Danish pipes. He has owned Bo Nordh, Chonowitsch, Lars Ivarsson, S. Bang, Poul Rasmussen, and Poul Ilsted pipes, and also owns nearly a dozen Sixten Ivarsson pipes, as well as many others. When I asked him to be frankly honest about their relative smoking characteristics, he smiled and said, "They smoke the same as my Ben Wades." As for me, I love the pipe designs and remarkable craftsmanship of Poul Ilsted pipes. Like Dunhill, Charatan, and Castello, they smoke great but are not superior to all others. Each is different. I once smoked a Chonowitsch, loaned to me by my good friend Tony Soderman. It was a beautiful pipe, impeccably well made. It smoked great, every bit as good as the great smoking old Comoys or Barlings. In terms of smoking, it smoked like all great briar should."


...and here's a response to that article from Rick Newcombe:

http://www.greatnorthernpipeclub.org/newcombe.pdf
...and a response to the response:

http://www.greatnorthernpipeclub.org/bamboozled.pdf
But in the end, I gotta say I agree with GLPease, romanticism too often goes unmentioned...
"While I can appreciate the scientific desire to apply a phenomenological approach to the exploration of enjoyment in pipe smoking, I can't help but think that this approach somehow ignores the fundamental reasons I smoke and collect pipes. I have enough "reason" in my life. The "rhyme" of the pipe is the important thing to me. St. Exupry wrote, "What is essential is invisible to the eye."
It's not elitism. It's not science. It's not objectivity. It's romance. The world needs more of that, I think."
http://www.glpease.com/Articles/Objectivity.html

Yeah, if finances permitted, I would love to get a JT Cooke pipe. Although more affordable, a Paolo Becker is certainly on the list. That GL Pease quote about sums it up perfectly for me. Thanks Mr. Lowercase.

A strawberry wood stack I wouldn't mind smoke'in ;-)

http://www.smokingpipes.com/pipes/new/becker/moreinfo.cfm?product_id=114913

misterlowercase said

Sixten Ivarsson didn't start out making ultra-high-grades but evolved and grew into a true master.

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There is the truth of what and how I feel, he became a master and I bought the pipe one from it's form, two from how it has aged, i.e. appeared to have been well taken care of, three it was complete, i.e. had it's original sleeve, four it spoke to me and five it was in the budget since I do not use house money for my collectibles.
All of the rod makers I have collected over the years were basically purchased as estate rods as is the case with most, but not all, my pipes. They were purchased with the same criteria I used when buying the Ivarsson and none have been bad purchases. With fly rods a bad rod can be cast well by a good caster but a great rod doesn't necessarily cast better with a bad caster.
Pipes are different animals and I venture to say if you purchased pipes as I do, i.e. in the group 1-3 range with an occasional group 4 it might be an epiphany. I never, exception being my daily walkabout, finish a pipe at one smoke, even my small group 1 Dunhill is a smoke and a followup DTG. I have Dr. appointments, PT, OT, Infusion's and life is what happens while I'm making other plans so the days for those group 5, 6 and Magnums have gone the way of the Dodo for me.
I found by accident my cobs, generally group 2-4 size, did not care what tobak I smoked they smoked them all very well but not all my briars in that range do and for that reason some are dedicated to certain tobak. My bar for what constituted my exceptional smokers was that they would smoke any tobak I pumped them with equally well and the three I listed do. If a Weber, which I don't own, would have been a pipe that did it I would have posted that as well, it wasn't until I got the Rainer Barbi that I began this experiment and it was an epiphany.
I don't mind that some of my pipes only like certain tobacco's but I'm happy that I can grab one of my top 3 anytime I want and enjoy my choice to the fullest, it says a lot about that maker and that particular pipe since I know you could easily find a pipe made by one of those makers that won't be in your Magic Three I'm happy I have the three I have.

fishnbanjo
I admire your collection. You have a pipe in there that I have been eyeballing ever since I came across a similar one a few years ago. Your chonowitsch bamboo. I am on the prowl daily for one.
I believe you have found what truly works for you, in your top three. Those are three fantastic pipes, that one should be proud to own and smoke.
Is it coincidence that your three magic smokers, are all top of the line? I don't think so. I think that you have allowed yourself to purchase what you consider very good pipes, that smoke as well as they look and I venture to say that you wouldn't want by any other way.
I also believe, that people find their magic pipes in lower priced pipes as well. Your chances are slimmer, IMO, but you can do it. Many people have.
Not sure where this post was going, as I read it over. Oh well. I enjoy these discussions.

About a year ago I sold a Bang and an Eltang for almost 50% more than what I paid for both (the Bang was an estate, the Eltang I bought new). Not a huge return but I realized that, to me, they performed at the same level as my J.Allen or my Brad Pohlman or my Brian Ruthenberg. In fact, there were sizable gaps between the end of the tenon and the bottom of the mortice of both pipes.
And with that rather sizable chunk of change I was able to go to the Chicago show and pick up pipes from Scott Thile, Grant Batson, and Andy Petersen, all of which give me AT LEAST as much smoking pleasure as the "ultras".
As with all things, your mileage may vary.