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The New Generation

(40 posts)
  • Started 2 years ago by toobfreak
  • Latest reply from The Pipe Monk
  1. toobfreak

    toobfreak

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    Not wanting to hijack another thread I thought I would create this as a separate topic. We got to talking about kids on another thread and I just wanted to contrast (not disagree) with something Cosmic said:

    I work with kids, and they are challenged more than my generation ever was. They have to know way higher math, and reading skills. They seem far more inquisitive and show a far greater understanding than my generation ever did.

    I don't dispute that at all. I've worked with a lot of kids too, but I think you live down south, I live up north near a big city. Here, kids are not that way. Not for the most part.

    I think they are more challenged in a lot of ways. I would not want to go to the schools they go to, where you must pass a metal detector going in, the doors are locked once there and police roam the halls. Where you can get suspended for a week for a doodle on your book-cover and charged with a crime and taken to court by the school and your parents are not allowed on the property.

    I cannot imagine how they see the world.

    I came home from school as a kid, running, yelling and playing, excited. They walk up the street quiet, looking tired, distant, solitary. It sure isn't the world I grew up in. A lot less friendly.

    As to math, when I went back for my advanced degree, I was older than most of the other students. The instructors kept telling us they had cut back on the calculus, etc., because the kids weren't able to pass it, so they cut a lot out so that more of them would pass. I gave a neighbor's kid an old slide rule to play with. She could not comprehend it and thanked god for calculators.

    Kids don't read books like I did, they spend most of their time on computers at school and on their phones with Snapchat the rest of the time, and they certainly cannot write. Not even taught to write anymore and their handwriting ain't for shit.

    I throw all kinds of things at kids that I know about and grew up with. Not part of their world and there is no interest or curiosity there. Had a young orthopedic doctor trainee come in with the real doctor so I asked him if he knew what DeQuervain's Syndrome was. Never heard of it. One kid I asked if he knew who was on the radio, he had no idea--- it was Jimi Hendrix playing All Along The Watchtower. Never heard of him? Geesh.

    I tried to tell one kid taking trig in med school an old rule for remembering trig formulas (Sohcahtoa the Indian chief). Not interested. Brought up lots of things trying to start conversations. Not interested to learn. Maybe I just picked a bad place to sample kids from?

    Now, I'm not disputing anyone, but those are my general experiences here and I just wonder why they are so different for different parts of the country and would be interested to read other people's experiences!

    To Master Po: Is it not being able to see that makes you tire of life?
    Master Po: No! It is being able to hear!
    Posted 2 years ago #
  2. bassbug

    bassbug

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    toobfreak

    Hard to argue against all your points but one...

    I would not want to go to the schools they go to, where you must pass a metal detector going in, the doors are locked once there and police roam the halls.

    We caused that, not the kids.

    I don't care who you are, you're not walking on the water while I'm fishing
    Posted 2 years ago #
  3. ashdigger

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    Get off my lawn.....

    Ubi Ignis Est?
    Posted 2 years ago #
  4. puffy

    puffy

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    I will just comment on one part of this topic Writing. I was told that writing isn't taught because almost every thing is in print these days.Watch how fast these youngsters can text.Print is what these kids understand now.Writing has become almost obsolete.

    Life's most valuable treasure is..Love
    Posted 2 years ago #
  5. bassbug

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    My ex wife is an elementary teacher (we get along quite well now that we're not married ) In her school board, like many others here in Ontario, cursive writing is simply not taught anymore...they consider it not a very useful skill in today's world.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  6. balkisobrains

    balkisobrains

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    Colleges love it when they show up stupid, especially the schools with big, popular athletic programs. They figure that the dumb ones will be there for five or six years, paying for the ones running around to get the ball on scholarship. Who do you think is behind the whole "common core" thing?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  7. jndyer

    jndyer

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    First, I work with kids everyday and have for the last ten years, and I do not envy what they are having to go through. This is one of those points in history where there is a fundamental change happening in how our world society functions. Anytime there is a major shift in technology (ie. the industrial revolution) it requires the up and coming generation learn a whole new set of skills in order to compete and be relative to their world. Kids today are coming into a world where knowledge is no longer guarded by a select few experts but fundamentally available to any who wish to access it. This means that learning has to now focus primarily on how to use knowledge instead of just acquiring it.

    If you think about it We are seeing this shift in the pipe community. At one time you had a local tobacconist who was the expert and you relied on his, or in some cases her, expertise in order to discover what type of tobacco you might enjoy, how to pack a pipe, what to look for in a pipe, etc. Now, in the information age, you can go to the internet and watch videos from all over the world and/or be active a sites like this to learn about tobaccos, read about pipes. Each of us in essence are able to become as, if not more, educated than the old style tobacconist. In other words we each have the tools to become an expert.

    Also, secondly, I am reminded daily that previous generations felt that they were the best generation and the kids of the day are somehow lost, ignorant, etc. Somehow we figured it out, much to the surprise of our parents and grandparents. We were fine and I have a feeling that this new generation with also build on our world and in the end make us all proud by achieving what we never thought possible.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  8. pagan

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    cursive writing is simply not taught anymore. writing is simply not taught anymore.

    This is true in Texas, my girlfriends son is 17 and I've had to teach him how to sign his name because he never learned cursive, sad

    Nowhere in the world will such a brotherly feeling of confidence be experienced as amongst those who sit together smoking their pipes
    Posted 2 years ago #
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    bigpond

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    Hold on to the nights
    Hold on to the memories
    I wish that I could give you something more
    That I could be yours
    How do we explain something that took us by surprise
    Promises in vain, love that is real but in disguise
    What happens now
    Do we break another rule
    Let our lovers play the fool
    I don't know how
    To stop feeling this way
    Hold on to the nights
    Hold on to the memories
    I wish that I could give you something more
    That I could be yours

    Posted 2 years ago #
  10. markthelad

    markthelad

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    I am a voracious reader, I have a Kindle that I enjoy reading from time to time, but I really enjoy holding and reading an actual book. I love the feel of books, the smell, the repetitious nostalgia and physical satisfaction of actually turning a page.
    I try from time to time to impress upon my own nieces, nephews and other children that I'm around, about how awesome reading is and how you can literally lose yourself in a whole other world, whether it be fictional or not.
    No matter how hard I try to describe to them the magic of reading, they never seem to get it.
    I have bought them books that I loved as a child, but they just lay them to the side and go play video games, or watch the boobtoob, or play on their phones.
    One day I thought that taking them to a book store and letting them pick out their own books would help (I have actually tried this several times), but to no avail.
    I will ask them weeks later how they liked their books, but they never even read them, or even attempted too as far as I can tell.
    My little nephew came to me one day and told me he had read a book, I was so happy for him that I asked him to bring me the book, so we could discuss it and I wanted him to tell me all about it.
    As it turns out, it was a book on how to navigate a PC video game.
    Obviously literature great or otherwise is lost on the youth of today, unless of course it's about a video game!

    "I know a man who gave up smoking, drinking, sex, and rich food. He was healthy right up to the day he killed himself."
    Johnny Carson
    Posted 2 years ago #
  11. tbradsim1

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    Here's my 2 cents and it's really not worth 2 cents. I don't have much interaction with today's youth, just my 3 Grandkids. When I ocassionly go to the the Grocery store and the bill is dollars and some cents, you give the cashier odd change not to break a bill, you get the deer in the headlight look, young cashiers do this the older ones not. My 20 yr old Grandson who stayed the summer with us taking an extra college cours knows nothing about his Country, yet he's touted as a good Student. I see on the local news school info about Glee , Drama courses in High school, everything from basket weaving to Sports. Nothing about reading , riteing,rithmetic. We Cajuns are strict on our children, our parish in the northern part of where I live was voted the highest achieving High School in the state. Here children say yes sir and yes mam. Am I old fashioned Damn Right I am, I cry at what we are giving our Children.

    The Old Cajun
    Posted 2 years ago #
  12. cosmicfolklore

    Cosmic

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    Having worked retail back in high school, I can say that back then even, the registers were set up to only work a certain way. And, if someone gives you odd change, you have to stop your normal line of thought, which was entering numbers you read off a label, and then do math. There is a shifting of gears. The customer has had time to do the math before you, and the registers wouldn't just let you open the drawer and count out change like other jobs before that. It's not that these people (myself included) can't do the math, it's that the Point of Sale machine and switching gears in your head have the change. And, sometimes the stress of having someone, who has had time to do the math while waiting in line, the laughs, the looks of judgement, none of that helps either. So, when I hear that folks can't do simple math now-a-days, I think back on that job I had at McDonalds in 1980. And, think that most people who criticize folks for that, have no idea what it's like to be that deer caught in headlights. It would just be so much simpler if everyone either used their cards or gave whole bills to pay for things... or be patient while that cashier switches gears in their heads and eases into the math.

    Cursive writing, who the hell uses proper cursive writing any more, I never even made the proper S, Q, W's, etc... I just combined writing with cursive to make something that only I could read. That said, I just checked and 39 states never stopped teaching cursive, and five states as of last year returned to teaching cursive. One of my daughters teaches elementary, so I have to hear about it. But, all in all, don't we all pretty much make up our own form of cursive? I only ever used it for note taking anyways.

    When I graduated high school, I only had to make it up to algebra 2.
    Trig, Geometry, and Calculus where offered but not required. I took these in college, but not high school. Now, to graduate high school all students have to pass Trig. And, the standards for passing have been brought up to higher level learning, so... students have an even greater understanding of the theories than we ever had back in the 70's-80's. I've never seen a slide rule in my life, nor an abacus, nor chicken bones being thrown into a fire to be read. I could probably pick one out of a line-up, since I have read about them in ancient writings... But really? complaining about kids noit using a sliderule is like complaining that kids now-a-days not knowing how to rewind a VHS tape.

    Also, only 5% of the population went to college in the 80's. Now, it is closer to 35% with more and more jobs requiring degrees every day.

    Kids are also constantly told that it is more dangerous outside, more pervs, more violence, abductions, etc... so when they stay in their rooms, study, read, play video games... my parents would have killed to have me and my siblings do this. ...instead of constantly losing my dad's tools in the woods, and using all of the firewood to build a clubhouse.

    I could go one and on and on, I coach a high school debate team, and I am proud as hell as what our schools are producing. Maybe your area of the world sucks, but really, people since the time of cavemen have complained about the decline in kids from their generation, meanwhile, we have gone to the moon, we have the internet, nuclear warheads, technology that just 100 years ago was merely science fiction.
    So forgive me, but when I hear men my own age scowling at the kids of today, I am reminded by those greasy haired fat gutted old men at the barber shop that would set around and complain that my generation liked music that you couldn't understand the lyrics, we didn't tuck in our shirts like real men, and we let our hair get longer like girls (even though my hair barely touched my collar). It was BS then, and it is BS now. There are great kids, and sucky kids, as we've always had. And, we place greater and greater demands on them every day. I for one am proud as hell for our kids making it to the bar we set as it gets higher and higher every year.

    I could go on and on, and how classmates I knew used to steal beer, steal cars for joy rides, and break and enter houses all the time back in the day. So, there is always going to be a lowlife class of folks in the world, but that is not the norm. Just my $0.02

    Michael
    Posted 2 years ago #
  13. cosmicfolklore

    Cosmic

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    BTW, you have to read this as if I am delivering it less like an angry rant, and more like a Sam Kinison rant that is angry but funny in a way.

    Posted 2 years ago #
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    aldecaker

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    My kids (16 and 18) love reading. Good, interesting reading. From real books, not devices. A lot of their friends do, too.

    It has always struck me that the town doctor in the 1800s was an important man, usually quite wealthy, respected, with one of the biggest houses in town. And he knew less about medicine and science than the average eighth-grade health student of today. Hell, maybe even sixth-grade. By virtue of the fact that he could simply read and write, which our schoolchildren can do at a fairly early age, he was light years ahead of most of the population. "Competition" was a bit different then. Just some food for thought.

    Being the crotchety old misanthrope that I am, I am convinced that the majority of people, across the board, are shitbags. I'm not convinced the ratio of "good kids" to shitbags has changed much over the years.

    A man who serves his country is a patriot. A man who serves his government is an employee. The two are not always the same thing.
    Posted 2 years ago #
  15. ashdigger

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    Being the crotchety old misanthrope that I am, I am convinced that the majority of people, across the board, are shitbags. I'm not convinced the ratio of "good kids" to shitbags has changed much over the years.

    This is the exact way it really is.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  16. tbradsim1

    tbradsim1

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    You had to blame the Cash Registet Mike, excuses,excuses,excuses, I rest my case.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  17. cosmicfolklore

    Cosmic

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    I think that everyone was forced to serve one year working the register of a fast food restaurant. Everyone would look at the people doing the lowest jobs in our country a little differently.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  18. markthelad

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    I try not to criticize the people behind the register making change, mostly because I suck at math.
    I would probably take a few seconds to figure the change as well, I guess I'm just not a math minded person.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  19. davet

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    Being the crotchety old misanthrope that I am, I am convinced that the majority of people, across the board, are shitbags. I'm not convinced the ratio of "good kids" to shitbags has changed much over the years.

    My sentiments exactly

    Posted 2 years ago #
  20. robwoodall

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    I think that as we move more and more toward a welfare economy, trophies for participation, teachers required to graduate a certain percentage of students, we have made it easier to fail at life.

    I also believe that there are so many more opportunities today than at any time in the past we have made it much easier to succeed at life.

    My eight-year-old reads fluently, on a tablet and on paper books. He's already started building a print library of books he loves (usually MineCraft and Pokemon, LOL). His eBooks are for "just stuff to read" that he doesn't necessarily want to keep forever.

    He writes simple computer programs using Scratch, a kid's programming language. He knows which part of the brain controls which function, and he knows the secret identity of every current member of DC's Justice League.

    When I was his age, I only knew one of the three!

    Posted 2 years ago #
  21. styler

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    I'm hearing a lot of "Kids these days don't know half the things I knew when I was their age, they just aren't interested", when in fact it would be just as valid for a younger person to say "Older people today don't know half the things that my generation have to know, they just don't see them as important".

    I think a lot of this is technology related. The world is becoming more and more automated, technology is becoming a part of everything. I got my first job in IT, about 15 years ago, based on what I'd taught myself about PCs. I'd largely taught myself these things from trying to get PC games to run or trying to make sure my search history was fully deleted... but that's another story...

    It's very easy to be blase about aspects of youth culture being a waste of time, if you never actually have to engage in them.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  22. toobfreak

    toobfreak

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    My thoughts:

    I'm not sure who caused the changes in schools. When I went to school, I think ONCE during high school, someone was busted for a knife, and for all I know, it was just a penknife. No one brought guns. It is really scary the number of zero tolerance things schools will ruin a kid's life over now.

    Old cash registers just popped up a total. Now they figure the math for you. Tell you what the change is. They even tell you to put the money in the drawer.

    Cursive writing is still very important. Many schools are finding out and re-instituting it. Remember reading, writing and arithmetic? It was one of the most important things. Today, books will read out-loud to you, and the calculator will figure everything out, but writing is still very necessary, not only is it part of learning effective communication (look at the people who can't spell, punctuate or capitalize on the web), sign documents, write on pencil and paper letters and notes and things, but people lose sight of the fact that developing handwriting skills is part and parcel of mental and emotional development. Handwriting is an extension of the brain because the brain directs the hand. Kids need to learn how to write and communicate well.

    Lord knows a lot of people read poorly and now they can't write either? C'mon! THAT MAKES THEM ILLITERATE. And the school does not consider that important in today's world? The gov. run school system is the lowest denominator in education, anywhere else is just a step up, but at least it is something, but real education starts in the home. Just because the "school" doesn't teach it is no excuse why the parents cannot.

    One last thing: it is one thing what the schools teach, but what is often overlooked is called the retention curve; ask a kid one year or five years out of school what they remember. It is scary what they have forgotten. It is one thing to teach a kid how to make it through the next test, quite a different thing to engage a child to really learn, and I think the modern educational environment is often just as demoralizing on the teachers as it is on the kids, and a lot of times, both are just struggling to make it through.

    In ten years we are faced with a generation running the world (and our lives) that are poor readers, cannot write, have no idea who the first president was, what country attacked us at Pearl Harbor or who we fought to gain independence from in the Revolutionary War. That doesn't scare the crap out of you?

    Think I'm kidding? Then you never watched Leno's Jaywalkers or Watter's World where they go out and ask people on the street common everyday questions.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  23. davet

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    Think I'm kidding? Then you never watched Leno's Jaywalkers or Watter's World where they go out and ask people on the street common everyday questions.

    We had a TV show in Canada This Hour Has 22 Minutes, one of the hosts did a segment Talking to Americans, he would ask questions about Canada and the responses were hilarious. One I remember was if Canada should outlaw setting our elderly adrift on iceflows, seriously, people were aghast thinking we did that up here

    Posted 2 years ago #
  24. jpmcwjr

    jpmcwjr

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    I don't think of myself as a hopeless romantic, but I do not believe the majority of folks are shitbags. Am I naive? Too sheltered a life?

    I know that you believe you understood what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
    Posted 2 years ago #
  25. cosmicfolklore

    Cosmic

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    And the school does not consider that important in today's world?

    Schools nationwide run from community up. The Dept of Education in DC comes up with a broad range of generalized crap, then the states all rewrite them and send them to local school boards, and then the systems all determine what happens in the classroom. The most powerful influence on the classroom is the local PTO/PTA and school board meetings. You want to make an impact on what is happening behind those doors, you attend, get involved, and speak out.

    For some reason these last twenty years, it has become popular to attack schools, teachers, and curriculum, without any basis in reality. People talk like one governing body or person can control the schools. But, the way schools are set up across the country, with just minor differences in funding and whatnot, is for the communities to have a great input into their local schools. Whether you have kids in school or not, this is important. If you think something is going on that you don't like, get involved. Whether we have kids or not, we all have to live with the results of schools around us. If you think that they are cranking out idiots, then get involved. No one wants to live in a neighborhood full of idiots.
    Don't complain, make the change.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  26. cosmicfolklore

    Cosmic

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    Think I'm kidding? Then you never watched Leno's Jaywalkers or Watter's World where they go out and ask people on the street common everyday questions.

    Total BS. Put a camera on me in the mall and ask me the capital of something, and I am going to act like an idiot too.
    Just look at our responses on here to someone asking for a suggestion for a tobacco, we play with it. It's fun. Besides, if they had gotten straight faced answers that were all correct, do you think Jay Leno would have showed it? No, everyone was having fun, and is no basis for critiquing schools.

    Anyway, I've heard this BS since the 70's. Same crap, different day, and if you are basing your opinion of the kids on Leno and the guy at the register of McDonalds, then... ha ha, over and out :::drop mic:::

    Posted 2 years ago #
  27. toobfreak

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    davet, that would not surprise me. America has fallen to something like 25th in the world in education. It is not a perceptual thing, I think the next generation is a failed social experiment that will eventually bite us in the ass.

    When I was a kid your parents ruled the house and you got your ass handed to you if you got too far out of line. You listened or else.

    Today, neither the school nor the parents can touch the kid no matter what, else they will get sued. Sometimes by the kid!

    Posted 2 years ago #
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    aldecaker

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    @jpm- I don't think you're naive or sheltered. I think you're just not a crotchety old misanthrope!

    Posted 2 years ago #
  29. leacha

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    jndyer's post covered it for me but I'd like to add the most disturbing trend I have seen.

    No common sense.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  30. mso489

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    Really interesting discussion, starting with the old "it ain't like it used to be," but unpacking that with some actual examples and ideas. I don't think the parent generation, or even the grandparent generation, can successfully compare their historical growing-up era with today's kids's formative years. Your own growing up is seen through the eyes of a child, and of course, I was never any trouble to anyone. Do you believe that? Of me, or you? Today's kids do live in a different world, it's true, but sussing out what that means is excruciatingly challenging.

    One minor point as an example. When I was in grammar school, junior high (middle school), and high school, I was a free range kid. I had a bike and pocket change for bus money, and I was expected to show up for meals and do certain chores. Otherwise, my time and whereabouts were my own as long as no one complained about me. I would point out that the area was not particularly safe. Groups of young kids were found slain in forested areas. A serial killer buried dozens under his ranch house in an adjoining suburb. I don't think my parents were feeding me to the wolves, but they let me know that danger existed, and I was expected to be wary and vigilant. Today, people are much more careful about their kids and most kids spend most of their time in adult-supervised situations. That is not irrational, but it is very different. Add devices with screens and it is a different culture and world. Referencing cursive writing, during my twenties, much of my contact with my family was in cursive writing, another cultural abyss we've crossed.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  31. davet

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    davet, that would not surprise me.

    It's different up here, there is so much information from south of the border, TV, movies, it just overwhelms Canadian content. I wouldn't be surprised if U.S. history was retained more than our own. I'm certainly not complaining, most Canadian TV and movies suck.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  32. toobfreak

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    everyone was having fun

    Really? Thousands and thousands of people and they were all just having fun making themselves look like idiots before the camera on national TV? Surely not the only critique of schools or kids by a long measure, but if you want, take some time and watch a few Leno Jaywalkers or Watter's Worlds and tell me these people are all just kidding.

    One thing you will note is that as the person gets older, much older, they usually seem to more often know the answers than do the very young. You decide:

    Jay Leno

    Posted 2 years ago #
  33. jpmcwjr

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    @jpm- I don't think you're naive or sheltered. I think you're just not a crotchety old misanthrope!

    Well, thanks.....I guess! I read that as saying I'm a crotchety old misanthrope, but not only that.... At least that's one reading.....

    Posted 2 years ago #
  34. mso489

    mso489

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    ...another cultural curiosity ... despite all the devices, many with keyboards or attachable to keyboards, I feel that touch typing has actually declined. It's nearly all hunt and peck, which slows writing down and limits length a lot, fine for tweets and texts, but not more.

    Posted 2 years ago #
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    aldecaker

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    How about, "You're no crotchety old misanthrope"?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  36. balkisobrains

    balkisobrains

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    The question-mark instead of the period kills me. I seem to see that much more often within the last 15 years or so.

    (Not directed towards your question-mark, aldecaker, you're ok there.) =)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  37. jpmcwjr

    jpmcwjr

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    It does????? Multiple punctuation marks gets me as much as incorrect ones. Hadn't noticed the question mark in place of the period, but I will look now. Yes, that's what I will do?

    Adding an apostrophe to the possessive "its" is possibly the most repeated mistake.

    Posted 2 years ago #
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    cally454

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    Won't comment on this generation. I do feel sorry for them though. I guess they're stressed out something fierce. Most don't have the normal stresseres most of us endured. They don't marry, have kids, no mortgage, use uber so no car note. Something's going on.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  39. snowyowl

    snowyowl

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     photo cicero_zpsojkc2bfq.jpg

    [this is from the 60s... BC]

    "If you see something... pipe up."
    Posted 2 years ago #
  40. disinformatique

    The Pipe Monk

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    There is a reason you cannot use calculators in schools in India in class and in exams. Not even when you're doing your Masters Degree. Police has no business inside a school or college or even a University. I feel lucky that I studied when schools were schools and mass shootings were unheard of. Looking at US crime rates, I would not send my kids there for studies.

    Cheers,
    Chris

    Albert Einstein was once quoted as saying, ā€œI believe that pipe smoking contributes to a somewhat calm and objective judgment in all human affairs.ā€ One of the reasons behind this statement is that pipe smoking is meant to be a slow leisurely activity. It takes patience to smoke a pipe. Unlike cigarettes and cigars, there is a certain amount of technique to smoking a pipe. Where cigars and cigarettes can just be picked up, lit and puffed on, pipes require the development of a technique in order to get the best smoking experience.
    Posted 2 years ago #

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