Sasieni Shape Help Needed Please

...well, it ain't a Sasieni proper,

but a Litewate.
I've been wanting one for a while now and finally found the right one tonight, I just bought it so these are the only pix I have. I've been gravitating toward smaller pipes in general and have come to love the prince shape in particular, which is odd because I used to not like 'em.
This pipe falls under the variant of a "student prince" from what I've read, seemingly the only difference is the bulldoglike cut bead.
I can't seem to find any Sasieni proper standard catalog shape correlation, so was this shape specifically for 2nd lines only?
I think it's stamped 80A.
I've seen various Litewates marked --B and --X as well,

any notions to wha, if anything, these letters signify?
Regardless, it looks to be a sweet little petite pipe and I'm eager to eyeball it!
Any input much appreciated.



I did notice the shape showing up under Old England in a 1941 Geo. Yale catalog, but the later Old England shape charts do not show it...

Dave,

did the student shape ever show up as a 4 dot?
I was curious if this shape was an oddball one-off for 2nds,

or if the shape was also available as a proper Sasieni?
btw,

this is one shape where I'd rather it was a smooth,

but I'll take a rustic,

slim pickings for this shape!

::

ooooh Good find Beefeater, indeed it is an 86A, I still don't have it in hand and was relying on the lousy pix.

Thanks for the clarification!
I think the one you linked to may be earlier because of the -S- stem stamp,

mine has an L.

I hope mine looks as good as the pic of the worthpoint one!

:!:

:idea:
Hey Dave, good points there.

You probably have a few Litewates eh?

Are they really lightweight?
One reason I thought that the line might be one-off is because perhaps they are smaller than usual?
:?:

This old 8dot 88R is quite close,

but lacks the beadline:



http://www.smokingpipes.com/pipes/estate/england/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=84983
btw

...what is the correct term for that bulldoglike cut groove line anyways?

:?:

Klause, you're right about a plug pipe, the smaller pipes seem to enhance the flavors somehow for me, and for some reason I've been drawn lately for little straight princes, for some reason I do not like the slightly bent princes at all LOL I have no idea why?

Yes, I have a few, and yes the are light. They are about group 1 in size (with a good wind behind them). I actually have a straight prince, a lovat, and a pot. Nice 8 Dot, looking at the shape number, 88R, it's listed as the Ashford, and "New" in the 1936 price list, however, there isn't a picture in the catalog.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info Dave, roundabout grp 1 was exactly what I was hoping for!
The weird thing, and the confusing thing about Sasieni in general, is their numbering system and how sometimes the numbers can completely change on some of the 2nds lines, and their apparent habit of replacing or updating shapes while still using the very same shape number...
...like the SP example, the 88 (R for Rustic I suppose) must've been discontinued at some point because as the '36 price list you link to puts it, the 88 became the Ashford, which is the very sought after chubby Rhodesian shape we usually associate with that number --- and, if mine is an 86, there seemed to be an earlier version using the same shape number, but it was a billiard!

http://www.smokingpipes.com/pipes/estate/england/moreinfo.cfm?product_id=139839
Sasieni, by far, is the most confusing of all the famous well-loved British makers,

many mysteries, secrets, and unexplainable variants!

The Bowler/Elgin was the classic prince with slightly bent stem...

Here's an Old England 738R,

http://sqbull.blog120.fc2.com/blog-entry-50.html
This old 1dot appears to carry an 88 stamp to my eyes?

Perhaps it was The Prince from the catalog?



http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/immaculate-1920-24-sasieni-one-dot-427137246
The Bowler was a slightly larger version of The Prince,

http://chriskeene.com/sasi14
The closest thing I can find to the student shape is the Worcester/Wrexham,

http://chriskeene.com/sasi23

A strange thing happened to the Wrexham too, they kept using the name but completely changed the shape,

a worthpoint scan of 'sasieni wrexham' only pulls 9 hits, and only one of those is the straight prince shape, an old 8 dot.
...and The K of K is another odd prince variant, (or is it an apple???)

http://chriskeene.com/sasi11
But none of those have the beadline.
Oh well,

no easy answers.
And oddly, I found another Litewate 86A, but its got a bent stem!

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/sasienis-litewate-deluxe-86a-lightly-423971228

Maybe that was why it was a DeLuxe? LOL
Perhaps the closest yet would be this old 1dot shape 104R?

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-english-sasienipatent-dot-250748599

...it's a beautiful shape and I haven't seen many like it.
Looking at all those old old Rustics makes me want to get one, they look much better than the later versions I think.
Sasieni can be maddening.
Maddening!

Mr. Can's copy is so long that Worthpoint always cuts it off, and always the vital nomenclature transcription part is lost!
This bit is interesting though:

We know Four Dots started in production in July of 1924 and about the same time had "Town Names" instead of Shape Numbers. We can assume Eight Dots started around the same time because the earliest Eight Dots had Shape Numbers and, therefore, preceded "Town Names." All of them were fitted for the Sasieni filter and carried Patent Numbers reflecting that fact. One Dots, Four Dots and Eight Dots with Shape Numbers were all made before July of 1924.
Within the first year (1919-1920) Sasieni production ceased altogether when the factory was destroyed by fire and had to be rebuilt. Exactly how many of these One Dots were produced between 1920 and 1924 is unknown, but undoubtedly production numbers were low (if only because of lack of brand recognition and, therefore lack of orders). Common sense suggests that very few were made and even fewer have survived through our era!
For many years, Sasieni collectors erroneously believed that One Dots were made until 1927 when it was believed that Four Dots were introduced. When and where this urban legend started is unknown. However, the recent "discovery" of a 1924 Sasieni Catalog showing Four Dots with "Town Names" altered conventional thinking. This was subsequently confirmed by a review of a Sasieni Patent Application stating that Four Dots had been in constant production since July of 1924!

Click to expand...

So, from this I would gather that from 1919 to roughly 1924, Sasieni used shape numbers?

No town names?
Were shape numbers ever included on town name pipes?
I'd love to see that 1924 catalog he talked about!

Yes, I was eyeballing that entry too because my sole 4dot is a Belfast!
Here's mine, still haven't cleaned it up! LOL I am a lazy ass!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESTATE-TOBACCO-PIPE-SASIENI-BELFAST-4-DOT-RUFF-ROOT-LONDON-ENGLAND-/390919652504?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=Xjz%252BqNiMdrEYNr1KGoC0CFpJfhA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
A pretty damn good Ruff Root and I love the shape,

I figure mine is mid to late 60's or 70's probably,

but dating post-war Sasieni's in any pinpoint manner is nearly impossible it seems!



dot dot

dot dot

:

-

:

Dot dash, dip flash, don't crash

:

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:

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opFIhWtDm6w

Dude,

no way!
I think you gotta good deal,

it's a patent numbered 4 dot!



It looks awesome!