Dunhill Seconds A Myth (My Theory)

mso489 · Aug 2, 2014

I don't own a Dunhill, so I am speculating, but it seems to me that though Dunhill apparently

owns Parker, Hardcastle, and (maybe?) Britannia, it doesn't have seconds in the sense that it

redirects Dunhill shaped and partially completed pipes to other brands as seconds. I don't see

that in the lower level brands. If there is anything "second" about Parker and Hardcastle pipes,

it is that they may be brairs that were sorted out from the fussy selection process for Dunhill

pipes. The other pipe brands sometimes called seconds have their own shapes and styles and

are fine smoking pipes, but not "nearly" Dunhills. What do you know, think, or speculate on

the subject? I do own a Parker poker/cheerywood, and a Britannia Dublin, and both are sturdy,

fine pipes, but the Britannia has a lighter weight, better aged briar and smokes better, and was

surprisingly low cost at Tinder Box.

papipeguy · Aug 2, 2014

I think the term "seconds" is a bit misused. Many makers have sub-brands, which to my mind, is entirely different than "seconds" which I interpret to mean castoffs. It just may be parsing on my part but secondary lines from manufacturers do not necessarily mean demoted parts but rather a concentrated effort to get buyers involved with the brand and move up at some point.

Of course, that's not to say that any of them would toss a decent trammel on the garbage pile if three's another outlet.

It's an interesting theory you have and would make for a wonderful evening discussion at a pipe club meeting.

carytobacco · Jul 21, 2015

I was told this weekend by the U.S. Importer/distributor of Dunhill pipes that they do not do seconds. And that if a piece of briar is later found to be unusable (including after the pipe has been finished), that the piece of cut in half and thrown away.

buckaroo · Jul 21, 2015

^^ That's interesting. Thx.

jpmcwjr · Jul 21, 2015

I believe the sawing and discarding if the pipe has been stamped, but not otherwise.

georged · Jul 21, 2015

I was told this weekend by the U.S. Importer/distributor of Dunhill pipes that they do not do seconds. And that if a piece of briar is later found to be unusable (including after the pipe has been finished), that the piece of cut in half and thrown away.

Funny stuff. :lol:
He might have been told that, so isn't intentionally passing on BS, but unless "cutting pipes in half and throwing the pieces away" is something that they started doing quite recently, that's all it is.
My um, involvement with (exposure to?) marketing people in the PipeWorld---including the one you are referring to---has shown them to often be movers of merchandise first, and knowledgeable about the merchandise they're moving VERY much second.

Chasing Embers · Jul 21, 2015

I was under the impression than Dunhills were Missouri Meerschaum seconds. :mrgreen:

gloucesterman · Jul 22, 2015

Historically pipe makers reported 30 - 33% priemum bowls prior to the first world war and that figure dropped to 20 -25% by the mid '20s. Modern pipe makers claim to get about 5% flawless bowls. You can only use up just so many imperfect bowls with blasts. It would seem based on the numbers Dunhill would be sawing up a lot of bowls. Sounds like a good reason to justify their price. How factual it is, well that's anybody's guess. Unmarked stummels can make their way into the market in a number of ways that camouflage their origins. Dunhill may not market seconds as such but that doesn't mean they are destroying their rejects either. Logic suggests George is right on with his BS assessment.

sablebrush52 · Jul 22, 2015

Historically pipe makers reported 30 - 33% priemum bowls prior to the first world war and that figure dropped to 20 -25% by the mid '20s. Modern pipe makers claim to get about 5% flawless bowls.

Interesting. My discussions with factory pipemakers indicates a much higher percentage of firsts. The difference is largely brought about by hand carving with includes cutting down in the manufacturing process. The cut down stage involves shaping to remove surface flaws while retaining the basic model shape, a part of the process that doesn't happen with strictly machine made production lines.
Seconds, or secondary lines were a way to downstream wood of lesser quality. Both Sasieni and Comoy produced not only seconds, but thirds as well.

mso489 · Jul 22, 2015

Presumably the selection of briar by Dunhill is well established and doesn't pass along many duds. I think the Dunhill seconds fantasy is so tantalizing, it is used to sell "associated" brands like Parker, Hardcastle, and Britannia. The salesman who sold me one of my pipes alluded to Dunhill, but I kept a poker face and laughed later. With brands that "do" seconds, it is a fine institution and produces pipes that usually smoke as well as the "firsts" but don't have the flaw-free exterior. A good second is a great find. It used to be the gold in the basket of basket pipes, though now most basket pipes (in my experience) are cheesy crap. I still look.

jpmcwjr · Jul 22, 2015

A number—maybe 6-8—of my pipes were bought unfinished 50 years ago. They have turned nicely into good smokers and lookers. One pipe has no nomenclature on it whatsoever, but has no fills that have emerged over that time. I tried to avoid fills at all costs back then, and was mostly successful. I haven't seen a basket of such pipes at either of my local B+Ms.

daveinlax · Jul 22, 2015

Back in the day when Duhill was turning bowls in house the bowls with the flaws were sent to the Parker side of the factory. Now most of the bowls are turned in France and I've heard Italy too so the flawed bowls don't make it to England to be finished. 8O

gloucesterman · Jul 22, 2015

Sable, the figures I used came out of Cole's "GBD, The St. Claude story". I can't attest to their validity but those are the numbers he gave and the time frames he gave them for. I suspect you are right in some cases especially where latitude was given to carvers on standards. The St. Claude stuff was largely lathe produced so that might have affected his numbers.

oakbear · Jul 23, 2015

Dunhill have always put out that they don't do seconds. This just marketing spiel.
Sure you won't find a Dunhill second, but you will find all the named brands (who may also source stummels from elsewhere), plus a variety of shop named pipes in the UK, the stummel of which at some point was rejected from the Dunhill line, whether or not it made it to the UK.
I had a group 6 billiard which had the shop name on it and a nasty plastic preformed stem for the princely price of £25. I know it came from Dunhill because that's where the shop ordered it from, including the stamping they wanted.

I figure it got rejected because after the blast the grain wasn't great and had blank spots, as the drilling and shaping was perfect. A fairly late reject i guess, so maybe good value? Depends what you want really. It was a cheap but well drilled pipe with a middling blast and a terrible preformed stem.
They have always been masters of marketing and mystique (or snake oil sellers depending on your view). You can't buy that without the white spot.

saltedplug · Jul 25, 2015

So a second has more meanings than I knew.
Whatever it might mean for a particular pipe, the standard examination of drilling/draw, mortise/tenon junction (the most critical item to ensure proper flow of air, flaws in the wood, if estate particularly the condition of the bowl (avoiding spider-webbing, whatever that is, but to me a sign that it is degraded; smokingpipes sells pipes that have it; does anyone know of pictures of pipe bowls with it?), toothmarks that compromise a stem (a vendor from whom I buy has a very old French bulldog with a bone stem with toothmarks that deep; when I read spider-webbing or worries that a toothmarked stem might not hold up to clenching, a take the detour).

sablebrush52 · Feb 15, 2016

It was common knowledge in the trade that Dunhill "bought in" stummels from anybody (in England or France) who had them for sale. (see Ivy Ryan's Charatan piece). Charatan looked down its nose at that, but it seems that when Barling tried to get the legal requirement governing "Made in England" tightened, it got no peer support.

All British Marques were known to buy stummels from St Claude and from Germany in the 19th century and well into the 20th century. Barling made a decision to manufacture all of their own bowls after 1906. The others continued to supplement their own turning with bowls turned elsewhere. It's not a secret. I would be very surprised to learn that Dunhill didn't downstream bowls that didn't meet their specs. That would be wasteful and expensive, not a practice I associate with the Brit wood trade. As I recall from looking through Who made That Pipe, there are a number of names associated with Dunhill, but I'm not at home, so I can't fact check.
It's certainly possible that Dunhill took a different approach to down streaming briar that was different from that of Sasieni or Comoy.

misterlowercase · Feb 16, 2016

Here's what a Parker promo/reject/whatever looks like...

...they were much more careful to completely obliterate the Parker diamond than when they x'd out the Charatans:

https://www.smokingpipes.com/pipes/estate/england/moreinfo.cfm?product_id=98240
: puffy

:

Dunhill Seconds A Myth (My Theory)

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