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highlander

Might Stick Around
Dec 5, 2013
58
0
I'm interested in the topic of B&M's in general. I have another consuming hobby that has been characterized by the disappearance of its B&Ms over the last two decades. I understand that the same has happened in the pipe community -- long established and popular B&Ms now gone. I have come to the conclusion that the internet is not the principle reason for the extinguished stores, but their inability to create a niche and to understand what the internet provides that they choose not to.
Let me explain. And ask how these characteristics apply to the pipe community. And then I would welcome your comments.
Pure Cost: The main complaint by B&M owners is that they cannot compete with internet prices. And, in general, that is true. But that does not mean that customers won't pay higher prices if there is something they deem valuable resident in the B&Ms. It costs nothing to surf the net; it costs to drive to my local B&M. I don't pay taxes over the internet; I do at my B&M. I have to pay for shipping from the online store, unless I order about $100 or more in merchandise; I don't pay for shipping at my B&M. An shipping, combined with taxes, can wipe out any savings I would have for online shopping. I get a good discount online; I get a decent discount at my B&M. So, all in all, if I know exactly what I want, it is cheaper to go online. But if I don't know exactly what I want, I can waste a good amount of money purchasing something I would not have purchased if I would have handled and examined it in person.
So, cost is a big factor if I am shopping for a specific item that makes postage or total order amount reasonable. But, if not, my B&M is more attractive.
I have found that there is often a knee-jerk reaction by B&M folks that internet pricing is wiping them out. To some extent they have an argument; but it is not a complete argument.
Knowledge: When I order online, I have to do a lot of research myself. Even then, I might not be sure of the item I am purchasing. When I go into a B&M, I expect to be able to talk to knowledgeable people who have done their own research or have experience. That knowledge is a valuable addition to a B&M's attraction. It can make traveling to the B&M quite worthwhile.
Online sites often provide minimal information about a product, except for marketing superlatives. I have to do my own research. I have also noted that there are also people behind B&M counters that are essentially ignorant of their own product. It is very frustrating to ask a question and hear, "I don't know" -- or, worse, "If you can come back on Wednesday (or after lunch, or this evening, or when we hire somebody), Joe will be here and he can answer your questions. I think."
It seems to me, in the tobacco world, the basic division is between the cigar guys and the pipe guys -- and the knowledge can be equally segregated. In my other hobby, there is a massive division between the aspects of the hobby, resulting in completely blank looks if Joe isn't in the store.
Availability: This is where online sources shine. They have inventories that B&Ms can't hope to match. OTOH, online stores tend to carry only the better selling and more popular items from the bigger manufacturers. B&Ms can create a niche for unusual and hard to get items and, with knowledgeable staff, can market them to in store customers.
But, again, I've noted that some B&Ms chant the mantra of -- "That's not available". Or even worse, "We can order it, but we don't know when it will be here". Or "We should have some in this Spring. Maybe." And, "Yes, but we sold the only one we had in stock. I don't know if we are going to order any more." These sorts of responses drive customers away. B&Ms, it seems to me, can take individual orders, communicate their status, and cultivate customers. But many don't.
Atmosphere: There just isn't any atmosphere online. That's that. And this is where B&Ms can shine. They can showcase their merchandise and news about new merchandise and interest groups and special events and so on and so on. They can make just going to the store an anticipated event. They can make an unplanned purchase a pleasurable transaction. They can be, in short, fun.
However, I go to B&Ms where cliques of folks, who don't seem to be buying anything, either sit around or block the aisles or get rowdy. There are other customers who show up to socialize with the sales staff or each other, making it either unpleasant or nearly impossible to ask questions or even make purchases. I've stood around for 10-15 minutes, placed my merchandise back on the shelf, and left such stores
There don't seem to be a surplus of sales folks who have the skills to disengage and get down to the business of selling. Which can negate a big B&M advantage.
Convenience: Online shopping is indeed very convenient. I can place an online order at 2:00 a.m.; I can't wander into my B&M anytime I feel like it.
However, if I need something right away, there is no substitute for the B&M. Unless, I'm willing to pay a fortune for overnight delivery for an online item, I can get what I need from my B&M at the beginning of the next business day. which gets me into the store and makes me a customer.
This is, it seems, yet another opportunity for B&Ms.
Experience: The online purchase, unless you have problems with the website, is a flavorless experience. It can be the opposite of fun. But it can be quick and painless.
And this is another area where B&Ms can shine or can collapse. If the customer finds that showing up at the B&M is going to be educational and fun and pleasant, he'll come back. But it the experience is frustrating and costly and fruitless, he'll head back to his computer. The opportunity the B&M has for face to face, direct communication with a customer can be ruined by the factors pointed out above ... or by other factors.
B&Ms, sometimes called "Mom and Pop's", often fall into the trap of thinking that their problems are the customer's problems. If Joe doesn't show up, or the shipment is late, or they ran out of the item I called to confirm they had in stock, or they didn't hold the item they promised they had, or they rescheduled the special event, or they have to close early today because of a family issue, or they just can't hitch up their cajones and tell the freeloaders to buy or leave .... then the allure of the internet grows.
That's my spiel.
In my other hobby, for the reasons above, I shop almost exclusively on the internet ... except for common supplies that I need right away and which I have confidence are in stock.
So, I wonder if some of these same factors apply to pipe and tobacco B&Ms. Round my area, I have been pleased by the atmosphere, knowledge, convenience, and some experiences of shopping at our B&Ms. I can wait; I have enough tobacco and sufficient pipes for the rest of my life. However, the availability, some prices, and some experiences have been problematic.
Are pipe and tobacco B&Ms in trouble and how much have they contributed to their own problems?

 

highlander

Might Stick Around
Dec 5, 2013
58
0
I will be in PHX soon. Around Surprise. Any suggestions on the best B&M's?
I have noted, as you point out, that pipe smokers are a minority in our local B&Ms. And that the cigar smokers dominate the stores ... and the chairs ... and the TV. Some, I think, actually live there.

 

portalhq

Lurker
Aug 22, 2014
20
0
Geography factors in there, you need a sufficient amount of pipe smokers within a certain driving radius to survive, or barring that a receptive tourist market.
Smoking now carries a social stigma, therefore like cigar stores, a modern pipe store needs to be a refuge for pipe smokers, with room to smoke and visit with fellow smokers. The old Tinderbox at the mall model is dead.
Know your market and adapt with it, if young Hipsters are discovering the joys of pipe smoking then adjust your inventory to appeal to them. In this day and age I would go for the artisanal appeal.
Carry pipes that need to be seen in person before buying, a lot of websites just cannot adequately display the beauty of a hand crafted free form pipe.

 

voorhees

Lifer
May 30, 2012
3,834
939
Gonadistan
Here is my .02

I work a B&M on Saturdays only. I used to smoke cigars and now pipes exclusively. I am no longer able to give good advise on any particular cigar brand. Now I can help with choosing a mild or strong cigars and know the ones we have are mid range to low end. No premiums. The owners don't educate themselves on any aspect of the business and do not smoke.

They do try and send people my way who are interested in pipes smoking, but we only offer Sutliff tobacco in bulk, no tins. I have a hard time with this as many tobaccos are no available in bulk. They will not order anything and if it were not the only shop in town, it would have been out of business long ago.

I personally buy all of my own tobacco online for selection and price. I do buy my pipe cleaners, lighter fluid and small accessories there.

Additionally, most people who come in to buy have no idea what to smoke and those who do go right to what they like or we get those RYO buyers.

 

highlander

Might Stick Around
Dec 5, 2013
58
0
The owner(s) you describe are like those in my other hobby. He complains about the internet, but won't act to increase his selection and appeal. His other lines cover my area of interest; he can't be making any money on it.
The owner of my local pipe shop is pretty knowledgeable and welcoming and one of her employees is absolutely great. She she is talking about selling the shop. I can't think of anybody that would invest in it.

 

warren

Lifer
Sep 13, 2013
11,733
16,332
Foothills of the Chugach Range, AK
I purchased my pipes and tobaccos strictly from my local tobacconist until he sold out. I now have to purchase blends on-line and pipes when I am in a city that has a retailer. I miss my local store. The owner kept his square footage small, carried only what sold as he couldn't tie up moneys in iffy products. He knew his clientele well and catered to them. He had one employee, a part-timer, so he could tend to inventory and bills.
He put two kids through school, had a nice house, in other words he made a decent living. When He retired the new owner was absolutely determined to turn the pipe shop into primarily a cigar store. He lasted two years.
Bob got all of his money up front for the store and is living nicely now, unencumbered with pesky customers, inventory matters, taxes, etc. I miss him!

 
A B&M has to more than a shop. A good one is a community. At my favorite Briary, guys come in a buy their one cigar a day and set and smoke, rattle on about work, world problems, pipes, or whatever. There's another guy who comes in and brings a bottle and "holds court." I've met civil war re-enactor who has spent his life studying water battles, torpedoes in specific. A surgeon with quirky pipe rituals. An old civil rights activist from the 60's. Local TV news guy. Hunters, carpenters, I've gotten some great deals on servicing my air conditioner. Just guys who enjoy smoking pipes from all walks... sort of like here, but we don't use funny pictures as our avatar. We walk through the sort and pipes bond us like a brotherhood. Anything that might differ, we set aside to enjoy the leaf. It's better than a barber shop (which are dying off also). Being a part of the community overrides prices and any other complaint.
Like any business built around a community, it has it's ups and downs. Faces change, guys ask those same newbie questions. How do I out the stuff in the pipe? Should I smoke 1Q? Why does my mouth hurt? Sometimes people just stop going for whatever reason, or the owner burns out living off a below livable wage. Believe it or most business owners don't make middle income. Yeh, maybe a surge at christmas but a lousy rest of the year. For whatever reason. If the community is strong, the place will survive.
But, our culture has changed. People don't have time to dilly dally away an afternoon, a Saturday, or even a few hours here and there. It's just easier to log in at your leisure. And there's nothing wrong with that.
Luckily. I love in a part of the world where many don't have computers. They don't have cell phones. They aren't poor, they've just realized that when you live outside of these things, magic can happen. Not better maybe, not worse maybe, just different, the way people did it in the old days. Plus, you have more money to buy better pipes. And, by smoking out in the real world, people see these new pipes. But, anyways. I'm just rambling.

 

cmdrmcbragg

Lifer
Jul 29, 2013
1,739
3
Every B&M in my area has pipes, tins and bulk but primarily caters to the cigar crowd. I don't buy pipe tobacco at any of them because I can get a more favorable deal online. Simple economics for me: best selection and lowest prices win. I go though for cigars and usually just to smoke one. Again, I buy all my sticks online for the exact same reason. $7 online or $14 in person? Easy choice if I want to buy more than the one I'm going to smoke sitting on the leather couch and watching a game. The staffs I have experience with are not very knowledgable about pipes and pipe tobacco.
Without cigars those places would have all dried up because that is their bread and butter. Look in the B&M lounge and you can see quickly which way their business goes. At the ones I have been in it is almost (if not all) entirely cigar smokers.

 

lucky695

Part of the Furniture Now
Apr 2, 2013
795
143
I live in a small-ish college town. We have 1 B&M. Jon's Pipe Shop. I have been in there exactly twice. the first time is when I started on the pipe a few years back. the guy working in there is about 100 years old and NOT friendly. I started asking questions... he literally laughed at me. So I bought a couple ounces from him of "their blends" which I now know were really not "theirs". I went in the second time. There were 4 guys behind the counter. 3 smoking cigars and one pipe. the old guy was in there again. I went specifiaclly this time knowing what I wanted. He offered no conversation, no how do you do..nothing. AFTER purchasing my 1 tin of tobacco... I wandered over to the estate pipes that they had sitting in a case. The guy with the pipe came over and asked if I wanted to see any, as the other 3 just gave me the eye. disgusted I left and have never been back. Now if I want to go to a B&M, I have to drive to St. Louis... 100+ miles away. That store could be so much more.

 

sablebrush52

The Bard Of Barlings
Jun 15, 2013
19,777
45,381
Southern Oregon
jrs457.wixsite.com
Where once L. A. was home to a number of excellent tobacconists like the original Tinder Box, Gus', Kramer's, Copley's, and John's, it is pretty much the dark side of the moon when it comes to pipes. A very few remain to service the needs of pipe smokers. Cigars are where it's at, not only with the few remaining tobacconists, but with trendy restaurant/cigars lounges. Pipes are simply too small a market for any L.A. B&M to rely upon. That any tobacconists survive at all is a testament to their ability to satisfy their market through excellent service in a very unfriendly environment.

 

phil22

Starting to Get Obsessed
Mar 19, 2013
154
3
I have tried to do business with the pipe shop in my town (Huntsville, AL) but my experience has been like many others - not very pleasant. I spend around 8K a year on pipes and tobacco and related items and I would spend more locally but my local shop is not friendly or welcoming.
I was looking at a Castello pipe a couple of months ago, at the local place, and the man who was working the counter only let me hold the pipe a few seconds before he grabbed it out of my hand saying, "We have to be careful that people don't steal". I asked him if theft was a problem there and he said, "Not really, but I'd rather you just look at the pipes through the glass counter". Naturally I left.
As I was walking out I asked the owner how his pipe sales were going and he said "Not very good...people just don't buy pipes any more". I just shrugged my shoulders as I made my way through the front door. :puffy:
I think a lot of folks, like me, would patronize brick and mortar stores more (and pay more than online stores charge) if they received warm, friendly service.
By the way, Iwan Reis in Chicago was the opposite of my local joint and I have had great experiences, and lots of buying, there.

 

highlander

Might Stick Around
Dec 5, 2013
58
0
There do seem to be trends outside of cost that impact B&Ms. I conclude from the above that knowledgeable service, warmth and hospitality, stores not allowing cliques to dominate, and product availability are important to pipe smokers.
Like others, one of my two local shops is almost exclusively cigar smokers and the other is dominated by cigar smokers most afternoons -- they occupy the chairs and choose the TV channels. In fact, the second shop has a pipe evening every Friday and it is not unknown for some cigar smokers to just continue smoking and chatting and occupying space right in the middle of the pipe event. I will go to the shop with the intent of having a bowl and to chat with the pipe knowledgeable employee (the owner always seems to be preoccupied or involved in something other than the shop or on the phone with personal issues, although she does provide pretty good customer service) or to read, but, if the cigar group in there in force, I'll just leave. And that has me returning home and shopping online.
I don't begrudge the cigar smokers; I understand the economics. But I wonder if, over time, the pipe smokers drift off, can the cigar smokers keep the shop afloat.

 

maxpeters

Can't Leave
Jan 4, 2010
439
21
The B&M in my town isn't a place I like to hang out at. I have been going there for years and I still can't go into the humidor without someone running up and standing in the doorway to watch me. The last time I went into the humidor the clerk broke away from the people he was talking with in their little cigar lounge and came running over and stood there with the door open asking me what I was looking for. I told him I didn't know yet, I just wanted to see what they had, and to please not make me feel like a thief by standing there with the door open watching me. At this, he closed the door and said "I just want to help" and then started asking me what I smoked, and what I liked and started to pull this, that and the other out. I repeated I just wanted to look around, so he just stands there watching. I looked at him for a few seconds, and left without buying anything.

They do have some pipes, but I have only bought one pipe in 4 years, and that didn't smoke well. To be fair though, I have all the pipes I will ever rationally need. But I do like to handle a new pipe if I am attracted to it. But again, there someone stands at your elbow watching, and trying to get inside your head as to what you're looking for, what you like and trying to talk me to tears. I just want to look a pipe over and think about it maybe. Pick up another and think about it a few minutes. And they never get this, I leave most of the time wondering if I just have the face of a thief or something.

They do offer a wide range of tobacco, which is good. But even at this they never fail to surprise me. For instance, I wanted to try some Va./Per once, and bought some. It was great, so when I went back to get some more, they had to ask the person who blended it to come out, since they were out of the batch I had purchased from initially. This person goes about pouring out some Va. and then takes the bag of perique, reaches in and says "say when". WTH! I don't know! I didn't blend the first batch! So he proceeds to sprinkle perique all over the Va. Then says "here. try this". I took it home, and of course it didn't taste anything like the first stuff I had. So I tend to do a lot of my own research and buy online mostly.

 

phred

Lifer
Dec 11, 2012
1,754
4
My local B&M does have a cadre of "regulars" that sit in the lounge area, along with the owner. The owner is content to let people do their shopping without pestering them, but if you pause over an item and make eye contact, he'll head over to help you out. His daughter works the humidor room most days, and he's got some part-timers (some of whom are weekday regulars) helping out on the weekends. I'm normally content to ogle the pipes, check on the tins (not a huge selection, and the prices include local taxes, so I usually only purchase what I plan to smoke at the B&M, as I feel a little weird about bringing in tobacco purchased elsewhere). If I need a pouch or a lighter, the staff have always been helpful, and when I've been looking for a pipe, ditto - but they're otherwise unobtrusive, which I appreciate.
And the owner has probably forgotten more about cigars and pipe tobacco than I'll ever know... I think I'll pay them a visit this Friday, as it's been a while and I will finally have some spending money again. :D

 

highlander

Might Stick Around
Dec 5, 2013
58
0
Having established at least a conversational relationship with a couple of the workers at my local B&M -- and not being a cigar smoker -- I have been told that theft is not common. But, it happens and when it happens, it can be financially nasty. The thieves usually go for the expensive cigars. I was told of one incident when the thief made off with about 50 cigars.
There is usually only one worker in the shop; the owner can't afford to have two. It is difficult to see into the humidor, cigars are easy to conceal, and it is easy to tag-team a single worker (one distracts while the other steals).
With only two real cigar shops in my metropolitan area, many of the cigar customers are unknown to the staff. with customers they know, the staff is much more relaxed. And, from my POV, a good number of the people who enter the shop are (1) pretty scruffy, (2) can act pretty weird, and (3) are often clearly just wandering around killing time. There have been two occasions when I've stayed in the store just to show a presence when there was a single female worker and the customer was suspicious.
Nevertheless, if pipe smokers are treated as second class customers -- because they are seen as second class customers -- then the internet beckons. My local B&M is very considerate of pipe smokers -- depending upon the employee. And I have never been treated rudely. But, the employee is clearly stressed when we are talking about the merits of a pipe or selecting among several tobaccos (with intent to buy) and cigar purchaser after cigar purchaser interrupts my selection to get a single cheap cigar. I am prepared to wait out the interruptions, but I've seen other pipe customer lose interest and leave. So, we are back to the single, overloaded worker. Contributed to, perhaps, by an owner who isn't in the store that much.
Having said that, the other local B&M is nearly pure cigar, has 2-4 workers in it who are clearly not interested in pipe smokers, have misled me about several purchases (learned as I understood more about the pipe hobby), and they can be rude. So, after about four visits, I've never gone back.
At this point in this thread, my sense is that customer service, knowledgeable staff, and adequate product (or the ability to mix the requested blend) are very important. And that cost is not necessarily the determining factor in patronizing a B&M.
Discussion of pipe smokers dissatisfaction with the local B&Ms seems to constantly return to salesmen who don't have the product to make sales and, whether they have the product or not, don't know how to sell it.

 
Maybe, I'm just lucky to live in an area with many pipe smokers. I overheard a new customer asking him if there were more pipe smokers than cigar smokers. His response was that they sold more cigars, but by carrying high end pipes and tobaccos they actually make more money from pipe smokers. And, I was in there on two Saturdays when thefts have happened. The first was a Dunhill that was behind the counter, yet close enough to reach. The following Saturday a guy who was in the shop when the Dunny came up missing was caught with a pocket full of cigars taken from the humidor. It wasn't pretty.
In my own business I have to be careful about people handling the jewelry also. I cannot afford for something to get stolen. So, I can relate to the hovering business owner. I, too, am too absent minded and would forget that I left something in a customer's hands and get distracted elsewhere.
I don't defend all B&Ms. Some are located in areas without that above mentioned community, and without that, it will die away, and maybe rightly so. A community has to deserve the businesses located there. And that requires a certain responsibility from the community.
That Huntsville pipe shop, if the same one I'm thinking about, is run by morons. Years back I asked them about a small bowl pipe. I was looking for something about a .6 diameter, and the guy told me to go to a head shop. There wasn't any community there, so it can just die off for all I care. If people aren't supporting it, there's something wrong, IMO.

 

ravkesef

Lifer
Aug 10, 2010
2,928
9,566
82
Cheshire, CT
First of all, Highlander, thanks for a well written and logically presented discourse. Back in the day, any town of decent shies had a good tobacconist who carried pipes, a selection of tobacco and accessories, and the owner new with his merchandise and was willing to walk you through any situation that you cared to discuss. When I traveled to another city, I visited the brick-and-mortar store that I knew was there, and invariably was able to purchase something that I couldn't find locally. There was no such thing as a online, and the brick-and-mortar places with their marvelous catalogues were all there was. I was an undergraduate at the University of Missouri, and in Kansas City there was a sign over a store which read Fred Diebel, Tobacconist. I was a sophomore at the time and all I knew about pipe tobacco was that you could find them in the drugstore, and that's what I smoked. Fred's shop opened me up to the world of specialty pipe smoking, and what an awakening it was! For those of you who can remember the shop, it was at 4625 Wornall Road, in the Country Club Plaza, then--as now--a very upscale shopping area. Fred and Carl Ehwa (remember that name?) stored and blended their tobaccos in a cave south of town. In addition to a full line of GBDs and other fine pipes, Fred made his own pipes right there in the shop. He was one of the developers of the Perspex bit. I'm glad I started young in the world of fine pipes and tobaccos, and I owe Fred a tremendous debt of gratitude for the knowledge he imparted to me, and so many others, including Mike and Mary McNeil (McClelland Tobaccos.) When I was in Vietnam, Fred sent me pipes and tobaccos every month. I had, by this time, gravitated toward English blends, and my comrades on River Patrol in the Mekong Delta shouted at me regularly that I was going to get us all killed when the enemy smelled my smoke. (Actually, aftershave, scented deodorants and the like were a far greater threat, because these were really out of place smells in the Delta, and could be detected by the Viet Cong at considerable distances.)

Not long thereafter I found myself in Cambridge, Mass., and David P. Ehrlich and their sister store, Leavitt and Peirce were two more shops in the same genre. They had what you needed, and could discourse intelligently about pipes and tobaccos. I smoked DPE and Cake Box for quite few years. There was no shortage of excellent tobacconists around the country, and while there are still a few first-rate tobacconists still in business, most of them are gone, and we may never see their like again. The online retailers offer superlative service, selection and prices, but Highlander is right--the experience just isn't the same.

Just a few nostalgic thoughts.

 

carytobacco

Can't Leave
Nov 23, 2012
302
0
Cary, NC
@ravkesef Diebels, Ehrlich, and L&P? You certainly hit the jackpot in terms of having great B&Ms around
To the commenters talking about the Huntsville store, are you referring to Humidor Pipe Shop?

 

buster

Lifer
Sep 1, 2011
1,305
3
My brick and mortar store is cool! Yes they are more expensive than on line stores but the woman who owns it is nice. They have loads and loads of tins and bulk. I had not been in in a while and went in yesterday. She remembered me and what I enjoy. I picked out some bulk Lane's BCA, a tin of Maple street, pipe cleaners and we had a nice chat. I commented that it looked like she sold quite a few pipes and that it was nice to see some new blends! She then offered me some Comoy's pouches as samples. The shop also lets you load a bowl of bulk blends and try it out! You can't do that on line. I will buy on line from time to time but try and support the locals even though Iay the premium Ca. Taxes.

 
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