Astley Assertion in Pipedia

captainsousie · Jul 31, 2013

I read the following quote on the Fribourg and Treyer section in Pipedia. Is this true and if so, why isn't this information everywhere? If not, why is it still on Pipedia?

With the Estate Market flooded with recent production "Astley's" stamped pipes (thanks to the "new" owner of Upshall who bought the Astley's stamps at a "boot sale" and converts endless numbers of estate pipes into "Astley's"), the value of Astley's pipes has plummeted.

I have 2 Astley's pipes and I read this after acquiring them. This is quite the accusation but I can find very little information about it, none of it has any sort of citation.
EDIT: I should have included that I have smoked one of the Astley's and it is a great pipe. Both have great construction and feel quite light for their size. If they're re-stamped estate pipes, they did a damn good job.

snagstangl · Jul 31, 2013

I don't have any astley's , but I find that disturbing as well.

jdto · Jul 31, 2013

Very interesting. I have seen the Astleys on the Upshall Ebay page (which are pretty darn nice).

ssjones · Aug 1, 2013

I've heard that but never seen it in writing.

I own one of those Upshall sold Astley's. I find it curious as to how the Upshall ebay adds assert a certain date and manufacturer to their pipes (Upshalls or Astley's). I'm certain they are simply guessing. They also list Astley's as "high grade" what ever that means. This one is listed as "Super High Grade" and asserts it was made by Dunhill. As far as I can determine, Astley's didn't grade their pipes and there isn't anything on the nomenclature to indicate as such. They did have at least one seconds line, "Tudor Rose" (which is a higher grade Ferndown...go figure).
I'm a James Upshall fan but they way that brand is being managed by Ezrati is starting to leave a bad taste in my mouth.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-ASTLEY-SUPER-HIGH-GRADE-POT-SITTER-SOLID-SILVER-BAND-NOS-/400541482260?pt=UK_Collectables_Tobacciana_Smoking_LE&hash=item5d4221fd14

captainsousie · Aug 1, 2013

Thanks Al, you have a better ear to the ground for this stuff than most. I hear you on the brand management thing and I did wonder about Astley's Grading. I found a couple links to Astley's catalogs from the 1980s and they seem to have grade designations, and the pipes I have are stamped with two of those bearing this out, with corresponding higher or lower prices. Here are the 1980 catalog and the 1984 price list. The pipes that were not marked with a designation like "Balmoral" or "Straight Grain", like the ones in the ebay listings you referenced, were impossible to grade reliably. So I agree that they are probably trying to hustle a bit of extra cash but taking estate pipes, sanding of the nomenclature and re-stamping seems a bit hard to believe without a bit of evidence.

ssjones · Aug 1, 2013

Good research Captsousie. Are there any Astley's that have grade stamping (Straight Grain, etc.)? I have not seen any nor do closed Ebay sales show any. I did have a Tudor Rose one, it had a poorly constructed pre-made stem. I don't care much about the value either. I bought mine because I like the shape and since my first name is Al, I wanted a pipe with my initial on the stem....

captainsousie · Aug 1, 2013

I have never seen a straight grain stamped Astely's and we've both seen a Tudor Rose. Here's a shot of both of mine as well as a detail of their designation. Top is a Balmoral, bottom is a Windsor (giant size designation, not an indication that it was made by Sasieni).

ssjones · Aug 1, 2013

Here is my Astleys. The sales ad said it was a high grade, made in 1980 by Dunhill. I always thought it had more of an Upshall shape (and the button is identical to my Upshalls). Does it matter? Not really. My only complaint with the pipe was a wicked ghost that persists to this day (but diminishing).

captainsousie · Aug 1, 2013

Very pretty pipe. I agree proportions look way more Upshall than Dunhill on that one. Have you considered sending it to Walker Briar Works for an ozone treatment? A bit of a long wait time but might be worth it for an exorcism.

ssjones · Aug 1, 2013

I have considered the ozone treatment, but I keep thinking it might fade...perhaps wishful. I've retorted it twice.

cigrmaster · Aug 2, 2013

Are people saying that the guy selling these Astleys is lying about who made them? I own a Dunhill made Astley that looks like a regular Dunhill. I would hate to find out that the owner of the Upshall company is just stamping any pipe and calling them Dunhill or Upshall or Charatan.

captainsousie · Aug 2, 2013

Are people saying that the guy selling these Astleys is lying about who made them?

That's what I gathered from the pipedia quote. Especially this part.

"new" owner of Upshall who bought the Astley's stamps...and converts endless numbers of estate pipes into "Astley's"

If it's true, it's pretty damning and if not, pipedia is publishing rumor as fact. Either way, this is not a good situation.

cigrmaster · Aug 2, 2013

I think that pedia needs to clarify what they are saying. Either they are the real deal or they are not and if they are not, then Upshall is in deep shit.

cigrmaster · Aug 2, 2013

roth, Upshall sells their Astleys based on their claim that in my case Dunhill made my pipe. I would have never bought it if it was not a Dunhull so I want to know for a fact that it was made by them. They have no right to just add the Dunhill name if it was not in fact made by them so to me it is a huge deal. I hope the owners are stand up people who would never lie about something like this. In my case my pipe looked like a Dunhill, I know Al recently got one and it was said to be a Dunhill as well. Since this is now an issue, I think pedia needs to prove that Upshall is not being truthful or Upshall needs to prove the provenance of their pipes. They should not be allowed to continue putting names on their pipes if they cannot prove who made them.

ssjones · Aug 2, 2013

Pipepedia is like Wiki in that anyone registered can edit the information. In fact, I just did edit that page and added:

8/2/13: the person making this assertion above should offer proof that this has occurred. If not, it should not be taken as fact.

Harris: I don't think Upshall has any way of knowing who made the pipes they are selling, I'm fairly certain they are simply making an educated guess. I purchased a recent James Upshall from JB Hayes in VA. The owner has in his records purchasing the banded pipe from James Upshall in the late 80's as a special order piece. When I emailed Ezrati about the pipe, he said they did not do the band. The Ezrati's kindly always reply to my emails, but what bothers me now is they always give a certain answer (versus, "I can't be certain but I think...")
The rumours circulating about the Ezrati's are enough to make me cross them off my vendor list.

pitchfork · Aug 2, 2013

The rumours circulating about the Ezrati's are enough to make me cross them off my vendor list.

What kinds of things have you heard other than the Astley stamp claim? I've only bought the one Tilshead (new) from them and it was fine -- a keeper, in fact.
------------
BTW, for others who posted above, I always assume that when someone says "high grade" or "super high grade" that it's like packages of chicken saying "all natural" -- it doesn't mean jack. The "high grade" Astley pipes I've seen on the Upshall site, though, are some of the nicest I've seen anywhere -- typically the "high grade" copy is used for pipes with Cumberland stems and/or silver bands. I'm not troubled in the least by that.
As for the claims about who made each particular Astley pipe, that's a different matter, I think. While I wouldn't give a rip who made the pipe I bought, for buyers like Harris, it is indeed important. For those buyers, there should be an expectation of honesty from the seller. One solution would be to simply write Upshall and ask them whether they guarantee the provenance of a particular Astley pipe.

ssjones · Aug 2, 2013

One solution would be to simply write Upshall and ask them whether they guarantee the provenance of a particular Astley pipe.

There in lies my problem Pitchfork. I have emailed them on numerous occasions and received a very quick, courteous reply with an answer to my question. The reply was not a speculation or guess but a definitive answer. My issue is that I've learned their answers aren't always correct and is speculative as their dating and maker of their listed pipes. So, for myself, their credibility went down a notch.
I wouldn't say there is anything wrong with the pipes they sell. But the provenance they claim is just an educated guess on their part.
I just re-read the ad for my Astleys Rhodesian, it said:

The pipe has been smoked, is in excellent condition

All true, so I don't have any complaints about this purchase. I would rather the pipe be made by Upshall than Dunhill, so that is appealing to me as well.

pitchfork · Aug 2, 2013

I have emailed them on numerous occasions and received a very quick, courteous reply with an answer to my question. The reply was not a speculation or guess but a definitive answer. My issue is that I've learned their answers aren't always correct and is speculative as their dating and maker of their listed pipes.

I see. That's too bad. I guess folks shouldn't buy Astley pipes from them if they're concerned about provenance.
I'm not a multi-millionaire, but a better business model for selling these Astley pipes would be to simply post a full set of photos of each pipe and describe their attributes. Relying on spurious claims of Dunhill or Upshall manufacture probably isn't doing much for sales, anyway. At least it doesn't appear so.

pitchfork · Aug 2, 2013

O/T
Al, BTW, where do you usually purchase Upshall pipes? Are they still making new Upshalls, and if so, does anyone carry them besides James Upshall Co.?

cigrmaster · Aug 2, 2013

Al, you are saying that Upshall definitively says they know the provenance but you do not believe them. The rumors about these pipes from what I can tell start with Mr Can aka Tony Soderman who is a competitor and a guy who in my opinion spews more bullshit than any Ebay seller I have ever seen. It doesn't mean he is wrong, but how can I know who the hell is telling the truth.
Have you ever asked Upshall, how they can say for fact which factory made the pipe, is it from looking at it or is there some type of code that came with the pipe when they got them?

Astley Assertion in Pipedia

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