A Sasieni Stumper.... (Or,..... One For The Saseeni Weenies!!)

beefeater33 · Mar 3, 2016

Well Fellas, We all love a good Sasieni puzzle don't we? :lol:

This one has me a bit stumped....... I have a theory, but would rather hear some thoughts from the others before I throw my 2 cents out there.

It APPEARS to be an old one-dot.

Nomenclature is weak, but clear and legible:
Sasieni (script fish tail) over

"RUSTIC" (overlaid ON the fishtail) over

LONDON MADE over

Pat. No 150221/20

Made in England (oval) on the left of panel

18 on the right side of panel
No Stinger, stem seems to be original, but I don't see any Pat. No's on the stem.
The single dot is a faded "ivory" color......
Whats curious is the placement of the dot..................?????
Any Thoughts?? Thanks!

beefeater33 · Mar 3, 2016

I Should have included some shots of the tenon and slot:

voorhees · Mar 3, 2016

I wonder if it's because the rod was inserted into the thicker portion of the stem. More at an angle.

buroak · Mar 3, 2016

My understanding is that the patent number on the shank is the same one that was otherwise stamped on the stem, so that does not offer a clue to the stem's originality. The tenon has been monkeyed with, and looks like it may be a replacement. The dot placement is weird, and is to my mind the brightest red flag.
Dmcmtk is probably going to drop in and set us all straight.

dmcmtk · Mar 3, 2016

I'm about to take a nap. The tenon does look like it may have been replaced. The rest of the stem does look correct, esp the slot/button area. I think what Jason said makes a lot of sense. Maybe when I wake up I may have more insight. The color of the dot, to me is a non-issue, the color is often faded on the older pipes. Also, I don't believe the Patent was always on the stems.
The shape looks like what would become the Brooklands shape. Interestingly, if you look at the later Four Dot from the 1930's catalog, the dots in the picture do not align along the center axis of the stem.

See also these two from Greg Pease's collection,

From Greg,

Two classic, tapered bulldogs. The upper Rustic is an early 1-dot, with a single dot on each side of the stem. These pipes are often confused with the much later 2-dot pipes. The Rough Root below is a recent acquisition, a later 4-dot version in the “Brooklands” shape.

http://glpease.com/Pipes/Collection/sasieni.html

snagstangl · Mar 3, 2016

Didn't Dunhill sue Sasieni at some point for trying to use a similar mark? I am thinking this looks like it might be one of those stems.

sablebrush52 · Mar 3, 2016

Dunhill did sue Sasieni, in 1924 I think. They won in the US and lost in England. Agree about the tenon. The patent wasn't always stamped on the stem. The placement of the dot is a little high, but as Dave pointed out, it wasn't necessarily centered.
The other stamping details are consistent with a bowl from that era.
EDIT: Establishing a stem as "original" for a pipe from this ear is nearly impossible to do. It's quite possible that the stem is a replacement.

ssjones · Mar 3, 2016

The slot end certainly has a Sasieni look. I don't see many One Dots, so I can't offer anything beyond that.

georged · Mar 3, 2016

The tenon has been monkeyed with, and looks like it may be a replacement.

No doubt about it.
In which case, since diamond shanks are notoriously weak, I'd check closely for cracks.
Better than a magnifying glass is to wet the inside of the mortise with plain water using a Q-tip or similar, then blowing gently into it while watching the evaporation pattern. Any cracks will be the last to dry and stand out clearly for ten seconds or so.
No idea what the off center dot means (if anything). Never seen one before.

kenbarnes · Mar 4, 2016

I am learning new things on a daily basis. I did not know that Sasieni 'carved' the surface of some of his pipes rather than sandblast them especially all those years ago.

beefeater33 · Mar 4, 2016

Thanks for the replies guys. So much knowledge here!
Voorhees-- That makes a LOT of sense, I didn't think of the stem wall thickness playing into it.........
Buroak-- I agree that the tenon has been replaced, the dot placement had me puzzled.
dmcmtk-- Agree on the color of the dot, I have some others that have faded over the decades. That four dot catalog page is REALLY TELLING..... I've looked at that same page many times and never noticed the dot placement. This tells me it was placed off-center by design......

I had also seen the GLP pipes-- I couldn't tell from the pics if his was off- center, but he does mention it has a dot on both sides of the stem? I wonder why this one doesn't?
Snag-- You were thinking the same as I was on this--- MY Theory was that the original one-dots were centered, then when Dunhill brought suit they moved it off-center. Just a guess. I know they moved the dot on a round stem from the top to the side, but that's impossible on this shape pipe stem.
Sable- I agree about replacement stems..... Really impossible to tell sometimes. We may never know!
SS- I don't see many one dots either.... Agree with the slot analysis, looks quite similar to the other Sasienis I have.
George-- I inspected with a 7X loupe-- I'm certain now that the tenon has been replaced. Good news is no cracks on the mortise. This stem has obviously been buffed long ago, off the pipe, no less, as the corners aren't crisp anymore. Also the dot is a bit proud........ probably harder material in the dot, or the vulcanite has shrunk over time?
Ken Barnes-- I too, learn so much on this forum, its the best around in my book! The ways of the Old Sasienis are a fun mystery for me. I have learned VOLUMES from your posts, Thanks for contributing!
Thanks all. :clap: I was hoping to pin the date on this as one which was made to please the Dunhill lawyers, but I guess it could have been made anytime from 1919-24? The old girl is coming up on 100 years........ Can't wait to clean this one up and spend a quiet evening with her, just listenin' to the stories she's got to share!! : puffy

:

dmcmtk · Mar 4, 2016

I had also seen the GLP pipes-- I couldn't tell from the pics if his was off- center, but he does mention it has a dot on both sides of the stem? I wonder why this one doesn't?

That is a whole other story, but the way it's told is that it was a response to the loss of the Dunhill suit, and are in fact quite rare (and also quite valuable in collectible terms). The "tell" on dating the pipe is the Patent itself from 1920, so 1920-23...Four Dots began in 1924. The short period of production is the reason one does not see many One Dots. A neat old pipe.

londonmake · Mar 7, 2016

Hi Beefeater

It's a beauty! The stem looks authentic, the SAS dot usually fade, and, the placement looks correct for the era, as confirmed by the catalogs and what I've observed collecting Sasieni over the years.

Where did you 'find' this baby, I'm curious.... was it your Grandfather's?

beefeater33 · Mar 9, 2016

Hey Londonmade!-

Love that avatar you got...

I found this in an estate lot from California....

I think the stem is authentic, but agree that the tenon has been replaced, looking forward to smoking this one, its a BEAUTY!

londonmake · Mar 9, 2016

Hi Beefeater33

Thanks and thanks for your answer. That Sasieni of yours is truly a rare find. I collect Sasieni Rustics, and have many, but not as many early examples when they were very boldly rustic in carving.
I'm amazed at what is still out there in the world to be 'found' at auctions, flea markets, and the like. All you have to do is keep looking... That's why I love flea markets.

A Sasieni Stumper.... (Or,..... One For The Saseeni Weenies!!)

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