A Matter of Taste - Part 2 What is Flavour?

Log in

SmokingPipes.com Updates

New Cigars




PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

Status
Not open for further replies.

pruss

Lifer
Feb 6, 2013
3,558
370
Mytown
Thanks to all you folks who read Part 1, and especially to those of you who commented or asked questions (or both!). I’m glad that you’re enjoying this topic. If you missed Part 1 ‘What is Taste?’ you can find it here: http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/a-matter-of-taste-%E2%80%93-part-1-what-is-taste
In this installment, we’re going to explore ‘flavour’; more specifically we’re going to try and distinguish flavour from taste. So like we did in Part 1, let’s start this gig off with a definition:
fla•vor/ˈflāvər

noun: flavour

1. the distinctive taste of a food or drink.

"the yogurt comes in eight fruit flavors"

synonyms: taste, savor, tang More

Let’s re-cap ‘taste’ real quick. Taste refers to one of the five primary taste sensations: sweet, sour, salt, bitter or umami. These are sensations identified in varying degrees by the taste buds on your tongue.
What I like about the definition of flavour above is the idea of a ‘distinctive taste of a food or drink’; only for our purposes I’d say, “The distinctive character of a food or drink.” Taste informs flavour. Think about it for a second. If I say, “Honey,” your brain probably doesn’t conjure up images of salty, bitter or sour tastes. Likewise, if I say, “Chocolate,” your brain might start thinking about chocolate as sweet, but then consider that chocolate has some bitterness, and maybe even a salty taste.
Flavour is the nuance which allows us to describe food, beverages, tobacco, and other items in terms beyond the five primary tastes. To be able to leap from, “This candy tastes sweet,” to, “This candy tastes like grape,” we need to expand our sensory perception beyond just our taste-buds and include the sensory abilities of our olfactory senses in the nasal cavity and retro-nasal passage/sinus.
The nose, knows!
Don’t believe me?
Okay. Here’s a fun game. Stop reading right now and go get a jelly bean, or a hard candy of any kind. With one hand, pinch your nose closed. With the other hand, pop the candy or jelly bean into your mouth. Keep your nose pinched closed! Examine what you taste.
You can probably (hopefully!) taste sweet, you may also begin to taste some of the unique flavours of the jelly bean, things like fruity or caramelly, or nutty flavours. Now release your nose and take a couple deep breaths through your nose. The flavours of the jelly bean should really open up. If it was fruity, you should now be able to determine what kind of fruit.
I led this exercise with a class once, and handed out green jelly beans. I asked the entire group to pinch their nose closed, take a jelly bean and chew it, and to write down the flavour they thought the jelly bean was. Then I asked them to open their nose, take a deep breath and record the actual flavour of the jelly bean. With noses plugged, the group was split 50/50; half the group was convinced that the flavour was green apple, the other half of the group was convinced the flavour was lime. On opening their noses and taking a deep breath the group was shocked… they had all taken a spearmint flavoured jelly bean. 8)
This all to say, that your nose informs flavour, and that without it we’re really limited in our ability to truly taste the nuance in anything we put in our mouth. In coffee cuppings and tea tastings we actually check the aroma of the dry grinds or leaf, the steeping grinds or leaf, and the freshly brewed coffee or tea before we EVER taste the finished product.
Flavour = Aroma + Taste
Thanks for reading and look out for installment 3 – The Mechanics of Tasting
-- Pat
PS - If you try the jelly bean/candy experiment above, I'd love to hear how it went for you! :puffy:

 

psychpipes

Can't Leave
Sep 4, 2013
321
102
36
Nature Coast of Florida
These posts have been really great so far. I am really hoping that devoting a little time to actually thinking about taste and flavor will help me develop a better understanding and appreciation for the tobacco I smoke. Thanks for the posts!

 
May 31, 2012
4,295
34
No doubt, this is good stuff.
So, it's like taste is our "primal circuit" and we're all pretty closely aligned in determining the same conclusion from the physical sensation of whatever stimuli it is --- like generally, we all can agree "this is salty" or "this is sweet" --- it would seem, at least for a large majority...
...whereas flavor is far more informed by subjective interpretation in part, especially if we happen to have intense early experiences with certain flavors which form mental imprints, like as a kid, I had to take some kinda yucky yellow medicine, I don't remember what it was, but I remember most distinctly its flavor + aroma, anything that I encounter that smells or tastes remotely like that stuff induces an instant gag reflex...
...likewise, good flavor experiences which make very early mental imprints may in our future life enhance those profiles due to our brain having laid those wires so early of it being "good stuff"...
...how much of an influence, I wonder, are early experiences with aroma?

Probably quite a lot?

Like if someone grew up with their father and grandfather smoking St. Bruno and smelling that aroma, would that person be sort of "predetermined" to enjoy St. Bruno?
What I'm trying to say or ask, clumsily, is about the "great divide" between us in terms of evaluating flavor, this seems to vary quite wildly with us...
...why, for example, doesn't everyone like Condor?

It's the most flavorsome baccy ever!

What triggers are involved and howcome those triggers may signal "alert - bad stuff" at first, yet later reverse those signals and say "yummiest stuff ever!"...
Actually, I dunno what I'm trying to say,

I reckon it's the nuance thing and how we can interpret the same flavors so differently according to the individual...
...the flavor of flavour,

that is, they're both the same, yet different.

:

:

 
I think kiwis taste exactly like strawberries. When I make jam out of them, and the kids eat sandwiches where they can't see the green, they will argue to death that it is strawberry. However, when I read that a tobacco has a chocolatey or nutty taste, I don't get it. I've never tasted that in a tobacco. I can't even imagine what a chocolate smoke would taste like, nor a nutty smoke. And, by nut, what do they mean? Peanuts are a far cry from pecans. And, almonds relate in no way to any other nut. And, even when trying to drink water with lime and water with lemon, I can't differentiate them. They are both sweet and sour. I can't seem to differentiate a yellow sour verses a green sour. Are my taste buds broken? LOL.
After reading some of the reviews online, I think I can do batter than most at relating the smoke to taste or flavors, but when I read some that give specific flavors a taste simile, like chocolate, I get lost. In the sweet range, I can get the difference in caramel, molassis, and honey, but sometimes they seem to grasp for things to relate the flavors to.
misterlowercase, for me, I am repelled by flavors that are too strong. Condor is one of them. My tongue just stops working when it gets overloaded. This is why I am also put off by latakia. It is just overwhelming to my palate, even if I drink something like coffee to cleanse the pallate. However, that lakeland (for lack of a better word) flavor I associate with old lady soaps. I can't even stand the lightly flavored Kendall Flakes. I just keep thinking about washing my hands as a kid in my great great grandmother's rose colored bathroom.

 

pruss

Lifer
Feb 6, 2013
3,558
370
Mytown
Ah, Troy, you're getting to the crux of the matter. The question, I think, that you're trying to ask is, "What determines our preferences?" Or, "Why do we like, what we like?"
That's getting the brain involved in decision making, and that is ALWAYS a path fraught with danger. Determining the presence of tastes is a mechanical process. Determining the presence of flavours is also a mechanical process. Identifying flavours, that's mechanical and mental because it requires interpretation. Determining preference, or "liking" of something, that's almost completely mental.
In professional tasting or cupping circles we get around interpretation, a little, by building a hierarchy of flavours and training that hierarchy as rote. This, literally, means that we memorize specific flavours and assign them prescribed flavour descriptors. We then calibrate with each other regularly, and create standardized protocols and tests to make sure that when I say, "This coffee had grassy notes," that my vendor in Colombia knows EXACTLY what I tasted.
One of the first rules of assessing flavours, of anything, is, "It doesn't matter whether or not you like it. All that we want to know is what you taste." Which is handy when I have to cup flavoured coffees. Blech!
-- Pat

 
May 31, 2012
4,295
34
Ah, Troy, you're getting to the crux of the matter. The question, I think, that you're trying to ask is, "What determines our preferences?" Or, "Why do we like, what we like?"
That's getting the brain involved in decision making, and that is ALWAYS a path fraught with danger. Determining the presence of tastes is a mechanical process. Determining the presence of flavours is also a mechanical process. Identifying flavours, that's mechanical and mental because it requires interpretation. Determining preference, or "liking" of something, that's almost completely mental.
Exactly there,

love how you laid that out, I can grasp it.

grok grok
In professional tasting or cupping circles we get around interpretation, a little, by building a hierarchy of flavours and training that hierarchy as rote. This, literally, means that we memorize specific flavours and assign them prescribed flavour descriptors. We then calibrate with each other regularly, and create standardized protocols and tests to make sure that when I say, "This coffee had grassy notes," that my vendor in Colombia knows EXACTLY what I tasted.
Cool.

As a tobacco enthusiast, I'd like to train my palate.

Where is the ninja-tongue school?

The Wu Tangy Clan as it were,

I'm learning, but I still struggle with unknown dimensions, my flavor spectrum is fairly small.

If I seriously attempted to expand it, by sampling a wide variety of stuff I've never tasted, or stuff like specific spices which I know what they are but I don't really know, y'know, and took notes and all that...
...would such a determined exercise enhance my pleasure of pipe tobacco?
Perhaps it would give me a broader range inwhich to more accurately pinpoint profiles, but would it also "enhance" my overall experience?
I think it just might.

Which is handy when I have to cup flavoured coffees. Blech!
I like my coffee flavored with vodka!

Hotty toddy!

:)

 

pruss

Lifer
Feb 6, 2013
3,558
370
Mytown
As a tobacco enthusiast, I'd like to train my palate. Where is the ninja-tongue school?
I have a plan! We're on our way there, pal. My school of thought here is to build consensus understanding of basic definitions (like taste and flavour), and then to enlist you guys into a methodology to aid in exploring tasting in a more structured way. I'm just being sneaky about it. Shhhh. Don't tell anyone.
I think kiwis taste exactly like strawberries.
Me too! The texture is a little bit different, but they are damn close in flavour.
However, when I read that a tobacco has a chocolatey or nutty taste, I don't get it. I've never tasted that in a tobacco. I can't even imagine what a chocolate smoke would taste like, nor a nutty smoke. And, by nut, what do they mean? Peanuts are a far cry from pecans. And, almonds relate in no way to any other nut. And, even when trying to drink water with lime and water with lemon, I can't differentiate them. They are both sweet and sour. I can't seem to differentiate a yellow sour verses a green sour. Are my taste buds broken?
Nope, they're not broken. But it's entirely possible that your definitions of "lime" and "lemon" are different than mine. Just as whomever is writing a tobacco review and is using "chocolatey" to define a flavour or aroma clearly isn't using that word in a way which is meaningful to you!
This is why it's important to have a shared language when describing flavours. Which, I hope, some of us will get to through this process of exploring tasting, and perhaps being more deliberate in our tasting.
Let me use another example. In a recent class, I was sharing a coffee with the group which I described as "sweet, fruity, with a caramelized sugar note." As we were sniffing and slurping the coffee, and the class was recording their own thoughts I saw one person frowning. I asked her what was up and she came back with, "I can NEVER taste what you taste!" She was thoroughly frustrated. So I asked her to share what she had written down about the flavour of the coffee and she reported, "I can only taste one thing! This coffee tastes JUST like roasted red peppers!" I smiled, she looked at me like I was a weirdo. I asked her to unpack what roasted red peppers taste like, "Well they're sweet." Good... what kind of sweet. "Kind of sugary, but a bit tangy, but with some burnt sugar flavour." Right, good, what do they remind you of? "They're kind of fruity." Then the light came on... I asked her what the coffee tasted like a second time and she said, "sweet, fruity and with a caramelized sugar note." We were tasting the EXACT same things in the coffee.
-- Pat

 

brdavidson

Lifer
Dec 30, 2012
2,017
5
We've had this conversation many times, now I'm starting to see the mechanics of tasting. I'll be trying this at home over the weekend.

 

phred

Lifer
Dec 11, 2012
1,754
4
Haven't done the "hold the nose" experiment with jelly beans, but I've done it with onions and apples - with the nose plugged, it's hard to distinguish between the two as the textures are very similar...
I've done beer, mead, and whisk(e)y tastings, and it's true that some of the subtle flavors are lost on people who haven't spent time developing their palates. It's also true that some people simply go on and on about flavors that other people don't taste at all - I know a couple of wine snobs who I'd love to do a blind tasting with... So I take some of the more florid tobacco reviews with a similar grain of salt as I work on my own palate.
The good news is, your point about the shared language of taste is spot on - it's one reason why beer judges have a standardized "taste wheel" that's been developed to categorize the various things that beer reminds the judges of. I seem to recall someone posting a similar item regarding tobacco flavors...
Edit - Found it!

 

ruger414

Starting to Get Obsessed
Mar 25, 2014
198
0
United States
These are really great posts!
As a fairly new pipe smoker it's good to be able to take a step back and evaluate what is really going on. Sometimes I get caught up in just making smoke and these posts have encouraged me to slow down, relax, and think much deeper on what I enjoy about the tobacco itself: what it tastes like, how it smells, and how it compares to other blends.
Thanks again!

 

lincolnsbark

Part of the Furniture Now
Apr 11, 2013
641
0
This is absolutely awesome. These first two articles are great and exactly what i've been looking for as a taste/flavor lesson.
I will definitely be trying the jelly bean experiment this weekend.
Consider me enlisted.

 

pruss

Lifer
Feb 6, 2013
3,558
370
Mytown
The good news is, your point about the shared language of taste is spot on - it's one reason why beer judges have a standardized "taste wheel" that's been developed to categorize the various things that beer reminds the judges of. I seem to recall someone posting a similar item regarding tobacco flavors...
Edit - Found it!
Phred, thanks for the comments and for sharing the link to that thread, and also to schmitzbitz's blog. There is some really useful stuff in there! I am hoping that these posts can serve as a primer for exploring the flavours and (his word) nuances he describes in a more fulsome way. Truly appreciate you digging that out bro.
I'm happy to hear that some of you guys are finding these posts useful and interesting. I'd love to hear back from anyone who tried the jelly bean experiment, or to hear the results of the tasting exercise for those of you that did the sweet, sour, salt and bitter solution exercise from Part 1.
Cheers,
-- Pat

 
Status
Not open for further replies.