When Artisans Make Lower Grade Pipes

[cigrmaster]

I have seen a proliferation in the segment of the market in the last few years. High end makers coming out with affordable lines. Examples are Sarah Eltang pipes are made by Tom Eltang, Clark Layton has his Loth line. Trever Talbert with his Ligne Bretagne, Briar Works with Pete Provost and Scot's Pipes from Scott Klein, and there are many other example.
Is there a chance that they will hurt their real high line pipes? Would some of you not buy from an artisan who also has a lower end line?
So are there people here buying some of these pipes and if so what are your feelings. Some of these pipes are priced really nicely and should we as a group be recommending them over some others?
For me I have one Talbert Ligne Bretagne and it smokes just fine. I would tell other smokers to try one as my experience along with others I know who have these pipes are enjoying them very much.

 

[alaskanpiper]

I have been wondering about these as well, and almost had one of "Scot's Pipes" in the cart the other day. I am curious to see if anyone has pulled the trigger and what they think so far. Good idea for a thread.

 

[Chasing Embers]

This has popped up a few times before.
http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/artisan-shop-pipes#post-1225237
I would certainly buy them were I still in the market. Even seconds cost money to produce, and if the artisan placed as much care in the drilling of them as they did their higher grade pieces they would smoke wonderfully. It could also serve as an entry point of buyers to know what to expect from the carvers more expensive pipes.

 

[npod]

I have seen a proliferation in the segment of the market in the last few years.

Yep! And that is a major warning sign that the market is about to correct! IMHO of course.

 

[npod]

Follow China, follow the money, follow the market. How China goes is how the market goes. Frankly, I am convinced that in the not so distant future we will talk about the "pipe boom" similar to the way we reminisce about the "cigar boom" in the 90s.
Of course, I'm discussing the top shelf, high end pipes. The market is currently saturated. Once people realize that the mid range briars taste the same and smoke as well, the rest is pure economics 101 in regard to the market range as a whole.
The overall high end market is not over by any means, but the overall pricing structure for artisan pipes is about ready for a good old fashion disturbance, IMHO, YMMV, etc.

 

[brian64]

IMO, a major factor (probably the primary factor) is simply that the looming tobacco apocalypse has caused a large % of high-end pipe customers to slow or cease their pipe purchases in favor of tobacco cellaring.
Or even many of those who have completed their cellars probably realize that at some point pipe prices are bound to plummet when on-line tobacco sales go away.

 

[alaskanpiper]

IMO, a major factor (probably the primary factor) is simply that the looming tobacco apocalypse has caused a large % of high-end pipe customers to slow or cease their pipe purchases in favor of tobacco cellaring.
Or even many of those who have completed their cellars probably realize that at some point pipe prices are bound to plummet when on-line tobacco sales go away.

I have been pondering this same possibility. I am relatively new to pipe smoking, and certainly wouldn't describe myself as a "high end pipe customer", but maybe a potential one. Either way all this talk of a looming apocalypse has certainly impacted what I spend money on. I have a decent amount of pipes, and am adding a few high end pipes in the shapes I really love via the estate market in recent weeks, but I only had 4 savinelli/peterson pipes before I had an entire dresser full of tobacco.
I have never bought an artisan pipe new. I just can't imagine spending that much on a single pipe as it is, so only two options exist.......the prices go up, and I am even less inclined........or they come down, which I am happy to wait for.
I guess a third is I get super rich and don't care, but I've been waiting on that one for a while now :lol:

 

[dmcmtk]

IMO, a major factor (probably the primary factor) is simply that the looming tobacco apocalypse has caused a large % of high-end pipe customers to slow or cease their pipe purchases in favor of tobacco cellaring.

I think there is a lot of truth to this. I've certainly spent more on tobacco than pipes this year. Of course, I already have too many pipes! Almost all of my pipes are estates. However...one of the pipes I did buy was a Scott Klein Burner, great little (grp 2 or so) smoker.

:D

 

[cigrmaster]

Neal, are you predicting a serious market correction where pipe prices really go down? With Asia buying as much as they do, I believe the prices will continue to be high. Now if Asia slows down that could be a big deal.

 

[georged]

Truly-handmade-by-one-person goods CAN'T go down in price past a certain point, or it's impossible for that person to make a living.
Except for a handful of Living Legend carvers, that's where the hobby is NOW.

 

[npod]

[/quote]

Neal, are you predicting a serious market correction where pipe prices really go down? With Asia buying as much as they do, I believe the prices will continue to be high. Now if Asia slows down that could be a big deal.

Asia is going cold. It’s already a significant issue. It’s a fickle market and they are definitely buying less. But the Danish high ends will continue to do well there. Those pipes are like Gucci or Prada or Rolex to the Asian market. They are iconic in their eyes. But I’m concerned they will be chasing less in the near future.

 

[npod]

Truly-handmade-by-one-person goods CAN'T go down in price past a certain point, or it's impossible for that person to make a living.

I agree completely George. I fear we will see a market loss of the tradition Artisans to some degree. History teaches us that most carvers don’t fair well as part time carvers.
I’m not being a negative Nancy here. I would hate to see this market change. But I’m using this as my MBA course work and many of the signs do in fact point to a decrease interest in the Asian markets and that is the Canary In The Cage here.
Only the top carvers will continue to make it in the $1,000 a pipe market. And the Chicago show also suggested a saturation in this high end range this year. But again, these are just my thoughts, based on many conversations with collectors and carvers and industry people.

 

[ssjones]

What happened to the uber-high end artisan pipes, like Larry Roush, M. Parks, Todd Johnson, JT Cooke. You almost never see a new pipe from any of those folks?

 

[instymp]

Like a Chinese Picasso?

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

Not sure how much lower most of these guys can go and still sustain a living. Something will have to give though because it inevitable demand will decrease. Pipe Carver would not be my recommendation as a career choice at this point.

 

[brian64]

Truly-handmade-by-one-person goods CAN'T go down in price past a certain point, or it's impossible for that person to make a living.

The independent little guy is typically affected most by government regulation.
And I can say for certain that there are at least two artisan pipes I would have purchased in the last year if not for the writing on the wall regarding tobacco. Those funds went into my cellar instead, and the same will likely be true in the coming months...or years.

 

[sasquatch]

I don't think it hurts an artisan to have a lower line. People understand, mostly, what makes the Great pipe Great. And not every pipe has to be Great. They can just be good.
When I started making pipes, I assumed I'd eventually just get good enough to produce super duper top tier pipes, and would do that. But the thing is, that market is small.
Joe Sixpack buys lots of pipes, so that's who I sell to, and that's what a lot of these guys are learning - it's hard to sell a 900 dollar pipe, and easy to sell 3 300 dollar pipes.
That said, these days, tobacco is taking a priority and I know a LOT of carvers who have felt it's a down year or so because all the money is being poured into the cellar.

 

[sablebrush52]

Neal, you're spot on. Asia is slowing down, and not just with pipes. Purchases of real estate by foreign buyers are down 40% from last year. The likelihood of many tobaccos going off the shelves in a couple of years, tightening of state oversight over online purchases, and a possible banning of online tobacco sales have people focused on building cellars, not high end pipe collections.
At last year's WCPS I talked with several people in the industry and they all said approximately the same thing. High end pipes are not selling. The sweet spot is in the $350 - $500 range. I've thought about the possibility that pipes will go down in value, and a case can be made for that happening, which contributes to my not spending a large amount on a pipe. I'm certainly seeing this in the vintage Britwood market. Barling prices have dropped. I just bought a Barling that would have gone for about $1000 a few years ago, and paid a little more than a fifth of that price.
There will always be exceptions, pipes that are rare and in superb condition, and people with excess cash to indulge their fancies. But these ARE the exceptions and I suspect that they are becoming fewer and fewer as time goes on. Add to that that the latest generation of great collectors is falling off the twig, and those collections are heading to market.
And I frankly expect that this correction will eventually hit the vintage tobacco market. It's not like there aren't decades of collected tins sitting in cellars, and someday those cellars will be hitting the market as well, selling into a shrinking market.
As an investment, pipes and tobaccos rank somewhere below tulips. There's a boom that turns into a bubble and then it pops.
As far as lower priced artisan pipes, Talbert's Ligne Bretagne are a great value. In Talbert's case these come from a warehouse full of stummels that he bought when he lived in France. He expertly finishes them. I have several and I get great smokes from all of them.

 

[husky]

High end makers coming out with affordable lines

I don't know what is normal in the high end market so about how much

are the "affordable lines" compared to the regular high end pipes/lines?

 

[sasquatch]

They are a lot cheaper, like, 1/5th or something for some of these guys. Buy stummels from Italy, fit a pre-made stem and finish the pipe, this kind of thing, it's well different than making one-off handmades in most cases. So Talbert, just as an example, has all this old stuff from a French factory that he bought en toto years ago, he has boxes of half finished stummels laying around, they need an airway and a stem, and boom, pipe almost done. So they sell for like 180 bucks where his handmade stuff is 500 +.
Askwith has a series like that, Gracik does, Scott Klein.... Premal Chheda has a line out of his shop that is way cheaper (and admittedly way hastier in process).