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STP

Lifer
Sep 8, 2020
4,104
9,547
Northeast USA
There are countless “microbreweries” around, but I still find Samuel Adams Octoberfest to be among the best. If you like flavored beer, their Pumpkin Ale (Jack-O) is pretty good. I also like their Festbeir ?

DF0EEE9A-0A8D-4CE2-867C-890F7721A34E.png
 

grandfaza808

Lurker
Aug 29, 2021
4
9
There are countless “microbreweries” around, but I still find Samuel Adams Octoberfest to be among the best. If you like flavored beer, their Pumpkin Ale (Jack-O) is pretty good. I also like their Festbeir ?

View attachment 95058
with all due respect - Sam Adams albeit good - isn't quite true Oktoberfest beer nor is any USA offered microbrew- you need to get on a ship and cross the atlantic for real oktoberfest beers - for the purity rules and such
 

STP

Lifer
Sep 8, 2020
4,104
9,547
Northeast USA
with all due respect - Sam Adams albeit good - isn't quite true Oktoberfest beer nor is any USA offered microbrew- you need to get on a ship and cross the atlantic for real oktoberfest beers - for the purity rules and such

The Hofbräuhaus Oktoberfest brewed in Pittsburgh might disagree, and all you have to do is cross the Monongahela River ?
 
Aug 1, 2012
4,587
5,131
with all due respect - Sam Adams albeit good - isn't quite true Oktoberfest beer nor is any USA offered microbrew- you need to get on a ship and cross the atlantic for real oktoberfest beers - for the purity rules and such
The tax laws associated with beer may have created a mystique but imbued no special flavors. Honestly, the modern German/Austrian offerings have as much in common with traditional Oktoberfest bier as their cars do. I wouldn't go on about the water either as the profiles of traditional lager water have been engineered down to the micron. While it is darn hard to do so, I would say that several international microbreweries have managed a more authentic festbier than most of their teutonic counterparts.
 

kschatey

Lifer
Oct 16, 2019
1,118
2,271
Ohio
with all due respect - Sam Adams albeit good - isn't quite true Oktoberfest beer nor is any USA offered microbrew- you need to get on a ship and cross the atlantic for real oktoberfest beers - for the purity rules and such
As like many things in history, the Reinheitsgebot seems to have become grossly romanticized over the years. Yes, there was a componnen of it regarding "purity" since there were some questionable ingredients being used at the time (but not much different than today), but it was really about taxes and control (e.g., wheat was not originally considered to be allowed, but of course there were massive quantities of weissbier being brewed that only the royal family could drink even though it was not allowed by the Reinheitsgebot).

To convolute matters even more, "Oktoberfest" beer is really just a branding. Traditionally, Oktoberfest beer was amber-colored marzen-style lager and it is pretty much no longer served at Oktoberfest in Munich. Instead, the beer served is "Festbier" which is a lighter, less alcoholic lager (although still possibly fitting into the "Marzen" category) as compared to the amber-colored, slightly "heavier" original Oktoberfest bier. Yes, things change with the times, but to say that Oktoberfest beers made in the USA or anywhere else aren't really Oktoberfest beers is just incorrect. Also, much like pipe tobacco, beer flavors are very subjective and genres are broad enough to allow interpretation of the style, so everybody has a different preference as to what is a good Oktoberfest beer and there's nothing wrong with that.
 

pantsBoots

Lifer
Jul 21, 2020
2,132
7,517
Terra Firma
Honestly, the modern German/Austrian offerings have as much in common with traditional Oktoberfest bier as their cars do. I wouldn't go on about the water either as the profiles of traditional lager water have been engineered down to the micron. While it is darn hard to do so, I would say that several international microbreweries have managed a more authentic festbier than most of their teutonic counterparts.

Oktoberfest beers have changed over time, it's true. What began as a dunkel-style became the venerable Märzen when people started copying malt processing techniques from elsewhere. As of late, the "official" style is even lighter than that, hence the difference between "Märzen vs. Festbier."

I would vehemently deny the quip regarding water being over-engineered. I am not well-versed in the proprietary methods for processing water at these and other breweries, but I will say the water makes the difference. I've seen brewery after brewery attempt to emulate German, Belgian, and other styles and, almost invariably, produce something that tastes like an imitation. The only variable is the water chemistry, which gets quite complex rather quickly.

My favorite Oktoberfest-style Märzen isn't among the 6 Munich breweries listed, although is as German as the day is long.
 

mso489

Lifer
Feb 21, 2013
41,210
60,433
I enjoy a "better" wine from time to time. And I have had artisan beer that was truly good, but only about one out of four. I think I'm just stogy about flavoring, but I have an inexpensive lagar that I like better than most "better" beers. And though I'm not big on Budweiser, I've heard the St. Louis bottler does the good stuff, and some other locations are distinctly lesser Buds. Pumpkin is only good in pie, and not always there. In beer I just find it peculiar. I haven't been to Germany, but I've heard the beer there is so good, its a different beverage. Growing up near Chicago, I thought Meister Brau was excellent -- Peter Hand Brewing Company, long out of business.
 

kschatey

Lifer
Oct 16, 2019
1,118
2,271
Ohio
I would vehemently deny the quip regarding water being over-engineered. I am not well-versed in the proprietary methods for processing water at these and other breweries, but I will say the water makes the difference. I've seen brewery after brewery attempt to emulate German, Belgian, and other styles and, almost invariably, produce something that tastes like an imitation. The only variable is the water chemistry, which gets quite complex rather quickly.
Yes, I would agree that water can and does make a big difference in brewing. If local water is not conducive to brewing, it needs to be treated. As a homebrewer, my local water is horrible for brewing, so I start with distilled or reverse osmosis water and add back salts/minerals as necessary to reach a target water profile. Large breweries may or may not so the same depending the needed water profile for a particular beer or style.
 
Jun 18, 2020
3,800
13,540
Wilmington, NC
Yes, I would agree that water can and does make a big difference in brewing. If local water is not conducive to brewing, it needs to be treated. As a homebrewer, my local water is horrible for brewing, so I start with distilled or reverse osmosis water and add back salts/minerals as necessary to reach a target water profile. Large breweries may or may not so the same depending the needed water profile for a particular beer or style.
Beer is over 90% water. So it has to taste good, but there is much more.
It has to have the correct pH for the malted barley types you are using so the mash ends up at the optimal pH for the enzymatic starch conversion (to sugars for the yeast).

The mineral and trace element content is also important for mash conversion as well as general yeast health, not to mention flavor.

Brewing water chemistry gets deep fast - forgive the pun.
 
Aug 1, 2012
4,587
5,131
The beer mythology (read "marketing") in this thread so far is pretty typical.

In point of fact brewing is less about romance and is more a mix of microbiology and chemical engineering. Disbelieve about water replication all you want but we have had replication of the original Burton salts for several decades, since Burton upon Trent went to a different water treatment plan. The same goes for original water profiles from places such as Pilsen and Dortmund. As the science has improved, so has the ability to perfect water profiles. That's why virtually nobody can tell the difference between original brewery and contract brewery for the same product.

Also, if you believe you can tell the difference between the USA Budweiser breweries (or even a majority of first-world contract brewery versions) you are either falling victim to your own bias or you should be working as a top-level taster for them.

As to why a microbrewery magically doesn't taste like an original product is mostly down to three things. Thing one is that the experience in the traditional style is mostly not there. The average microbrewer does not have the hundreds of thousands of dollars it takes to spend years in the beer and brewery research of their target style. Second, the brewer often has to account for the tastes of their customer base which may not run in the same vein as the original style. Third, when you have Jimmy, who is the only brewer at a <15,000 bbl/year facility and has untrained assistants, Jimmy isn't going to be able to replicate the work of Paulaner on his own. In case you were wondering, Paulaner, a relatively small brewery for its type and location has a fully staffed scientific lab and produces over 2,000,000 bbl a year.
 
Jun 18, 2020
3,800
13,540
Wilmington, NC
The beer mythology (read "marketing") in this thread so far is pretty typical.

In point of fact brewing is less about romance and is more a mix of microbiology and chemical engineering. Disbelieve about water replication all you want but we have had replication of the original Burton salts for several decades, since Burton upon Trent went to a different water treatment plan. The same goes for original water profiles from places such as Pilsen and Dortmund. As the science has improved, so has the ability to perfect water profiles. That's why virtually nobody can tell the difference between original brewery and contract brewery for the same product.

Also, if you believe you can tell the difference between the USA Budweiser breweries (or even a majority of first-world contract brewery versions) you are either falling victim to your own bias or you should be working as a top-level taster for them.

As to why a microbrewery magically doesn't taste like an original product is mostly down to three things. Thing one is that the experience in the traditional style is mostly not there. The average microbrewer does not have the hundreds of thousands of dollars it takes to spend years in the beer and brewery research of their target style. Second, the brewer often has to account for the tastes of their customer base which may not run in the same vein as the original style. Third, when you have Jimmy, who is the only brewer at a <15,000 bbl/year facility and has untrained assistants, Jimmy isn't going to be able to replicate the work of Paulaner on his own. In case you were wondering, Paulaner, a relatively small brewery for its type and location has a fully staffed scientific lab and produces over 2,000,000 bbl a year.
^^ This too!
 
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mso489

Lifer
Feb 21, 2013
41,210
60,433
I don't think I have especially acute taste buds, but I can certainly taste the difference between waters -- bottled, tap, and well -- from different places, so I don't understand why that wouldn't carry over to the taste of beers that are 90% water. I'm not sure where St. Louis sources its water, but I'd suspect the Mississippi River, even if they draw it out of the aquifer adjoining the river. The differences wouldn't have to be overt, but they would certainly play against the other ingredients and produce slightly or decidedly different flavors, I'd think. I used to drink out of an artisan well at the edge of the deep Lake Geneva in Wisconsin, and that tasted totally different than tap water in the Chicago suburbs.
 
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