Low Price, Siren Song or Turn-Off?

[mso489]

Many low-priced pipes are just not that well made, not well engineered, finished in a slap-dash way. On the other hand, it is incredible that some impressive pipes are sold for low-level prices and are really crafted at a higher grade level. Currently on offer are a beautifully shaped Dublin made by a reputable factory in a shape deeply reminiscent of one of the classic Dunhill shapes -- not stamped but handsome, for less than fifty bucks. Likewise, a name italian pipe with an unique rusticated finish and stylized stem for about fifty. I have reason to believe, from reviews and first hand experience with one of the brands, that these are at least good pipes, and maybe excellent. But I'm not sure if I am drawn to them most strongly by thrift or careful analysis. I've seen them both for sale for years ... really. Are you ever drawn in by the persistent attraction of a bargain? Or are you repelled by any pipe that doesn't cost enough to give you an assurance of quality? (Young visual artists are sometimes advised to overprice their art work somewhat so that people don't mistake the low price for the artist's estimation of his work.) What's your psychology faced with the low-priced pipe?

 

[beastkhk]

I find, for me, a low price is not necessarily a turn on, but a high price is a turn off.
I understand why people like the beautiful artistic pieces and why they pay a premium for them, but I am more about function than form. If the pipe is $15 bucks and looks to be drilled properly, weight and balance work, I am sold.
Public pipe smoking is so rare these days that regardless of how pretty your pipe looks you are going to look weird to a majority of people. That being said, the birds eye, straight grain, etc, do not add much value to me so I can't justify a premium to purchase that feature.
I do find that there is a threshold on low price where it seems too good to be true. For me it is about the $40 mark; at that price point I know I am still taking a risk, but am assuming that the drilling on the pipe is at least functional. Under that price I am hesitant and would want to inspect the pipe and drilling by hand before purchasing(given I buy a lot online I don't purchase pips under $40 unless it is due to them being on sale to drop below that threshold). That mentality is for new pipes, estates are a different animal all together. I just won 3 estates off ebay for $6-10 bucks each that to me are cheap enough that if I have to drill on them to make them smokable it doesn't bother me. They will be dedicated to traveling and beating up on so I am not going to be overly picky. My mentality on those super cheap beat-up pipes is that I could not get the block of briar to carve my own at that price, if it needs a little modification, even if I mess up and ruin the pipe, the worst I am out is $10.(and a bruised ego)

 

[frozenchurchwarden]

If it's the shape I want and doesn't use a plastic stem, cheaper is more attractive.

Price for me seems to be more about the availability of shapes than quality, the quality of pipes seems to be roughly the same for anything over $50, and it seems hard to find some shapes for under $200.

 

[aldecaker]

I am always intrigued by an affordable price point, but leery until I can check out the line or brand with people who have already experienced them. That is one of the many things this forum is great for; hell, I just recently weighed in with my personal experience with the $50 Stanwell brushed series. Anyone who might be scared off by the "too good to be true" price can rest assured that they are getting way more than $50 worth of value with those. Another positive experience I had with a $50-ish pipe was a Leonessa bulldog I bought from the local B&M. The reason I was willing to risk it was that I was able to physically inspect the pipe very closely, unlike when you see a pretty picture of a pipe that is "like" one you are considering on the Internet. Short answer: Siren song, but with conditions.

 

[sablebrush52]

When the price seems too good to be true, it usually is. Given all of the stages of manufacture from harvesting to milling, selling to shaping, followed by shipping and retailing, there is built in cost that needs to be recouped. Unless the pipe is made by nuns, or homeless orphans working in sweatshops, there is labor that needs to make a living. There are tools that need to be bought and replaced and workplaces that need to be maintained. And, unless pipemaking is a non profit enterprise, some profit must be made at every stage of the process.

So something's got to give, and it's going to be quality, starting with the basic materials. The briar will be lower grade that will not hold up over time. The cutting and shaping and finishing will be mechanized with little quality control as there is no margin for waste. You might end up with a decent pipe, though it will be hit or miss. Or, you might be happy with a cheap pipe and consider it to be good because it's cheap and you don't know any better. We all want to get something for nothing. But I don't know anyone who wants to get nothing for something.

 

[brass]

When I first started buying pipes, I wasn't too selective other than getting different shapes. Now, I want to fall in love with the pipe before buying it. I may look at hundreds of pipes and be off the market officially. Then I stumble across a particular pipe that I can't get out of my mind. PAD will strike where and when it wills.
I generally like to spend around $75 to $125 on the assumption I'll get a decent smoke out of them. So far, I haven't been disappointed in their performance, with one or two small exceptions.
I do have some pipes that aren't only good smokers but great smokers. One is a Savinelli Collector 2000 I got in estate for around $100. It originally retailed for a couple of bills. The others are my Missouri Meeschaum Freehand cobs that cost me between $20 for a standard to $50 for a custom factory finish.
The most recent pipe that I fell in love with was a $49 Stanwell Brushed Black Poker. If it wasn't for the Stanwell name and the mostly positive reviews on this site, I would have taken a pass. If it smokes as well as reported, I'll probably get one or two of the pots in Brushed Black or Brown.
But I'm not buying them because they are cheap. I'm buying them despite the price. I really like their shape and finish. Besides, the Stanwells I already own are very good smokers.
I already posted the pic elsewhere but here's the poker again.

Going forward, I may trade some of my pipes in and focus mostly on artisans or collectibles. But so far, I've found lots of very good performing and shapely pipes for $125 or less.
Pax

 

[mso489]

sablebrush, you've twanged my social conscience. I assume, when I buy what appears to be at least a mid-level pipe for a low-level price, that these are spun off pipe factories or carvers who sell much of their inventory for more, but find it profitable to sell a few for less to cull the herd, and can do that through economy of scale. Also, retailers sometimes buy an overstock of a style that just doesn't move and will sell at around cost to clear the shelves. The pipes I mentioned in my post are both from outfits that do nicely in the pipe business, and probably don't want to stick anyone with a loser pipe. But I raised the question because it bears consideration. Most low-end priced pipes are low-end pipes, so it is understood you have to shop for the special situations for a good bargain. But I don't think a good bargain is always a bad thing. The dream job is the flea market lightly smoked Dunhill, where the seller doesn't know what he has. Then there's that ethical question. I'm afraid I'd buy the pipe and run, unless the seller looked destitute.

 

[daimyo]

The other day Trever Talbert offered a test pipe of his for sale. Roughly shaped, unstained and presmoked he set the price at $55. Despite almost tripping over myself, someone else got it first. Lower price will not turn me away until I feel it will affect quality. I know, for instance, that some basket pipes will be great smokers but I don't like the odds. Still, if I saw a basket that really caught my eye, I would be game.

 

[frozenchurchwarden]

Now that's something I've been thinking about.

A large part of the price of any pipe on the market is the finish. Something I am largely indifferent about.

If you read the introduction threads on pipemaker's forum one of the first things they say is that drilling a tenon and bowl is the easy part, and getting a pipe out the door that looks good is the hard part.
pipemakersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5525

If you are a rank beginner, buy a kit. (A kit is a block of briar that has been drilled and fitted with a stem.) All you need to turn that into a pipe is...nothing. It already is a pipe. Your task is to make it pretty. THAT IS THE HARDESTTHING TO DO IN PIPE MAKING.

That said, it constantly frustrates me how little attention is paid to the internals on a pipe.

There really should be no such thing as a bad smoking pipe, made by anyone at any price.

 

[saltedplug]

I'm at a crossroads about briars vs. cobs. The beauty and endurance of briar is undeniable, and believe me I've done my share of window shopping. But if I let myself fall to that aesthetic magic, I'll usually be spending money that I should be saving. I've smoked cobs almost exclusively since Jan. 1 and can't fault their performance, but I have chafed at their small capacity, mostly, I think, as a group 4 size has been cemented in my head as standard, not for practical reasons. If on finishing a group 2 or 3 size cob and I want to smoke that tobacco longer, it takes just a few minutes to reload. So what's the big deal?
At any rate, Missouri Meerschaum told me their "Mark Twain" pipe, which is 19 X 41 mm, is 41 mm down to the center of the drilled shank insert, not to the bottom of the cob itself, and that it being a Dublin, the bowl had a gradual rather than aggressive taper, which to me says that although they wanted the pipe to be a Dublin, and thereby loose some capacity to the chamber taper, in the end they wanted a standard group 4 size. They said further that they hadn't made Dublins since the 30s. Based on what I know now I'm going to buy 10 of these pipes and more groups of 10 to stock up, you know, in case their 150 acre corn fields suddenly dries up or nuclear war takes down the entire supply of cobs worldwide.
Please don't mind my mind's tendency to acquire all the tobacco and pipes for this life and the next. No, it isn't logical.

 

[brass]

Mike, have you smoked the General or the Freehand? I like larger bowls and both of these smoke great.
Pax

 

[maxx]

The Stanwell Black Brushed look attractive.

 

[frozenchurchwarden]

I'm a big fan of the General Cob, the bore on the bowl is the widest they make, it's about 2" deep with nearly straight walls, and on the last few I ordered they had a wooden plug whereas the ones I ordered last year did not.

It looks like Missouri Meerschaum has been improving.

 

[sablebrush52]

That said, it constantly frustrates me how little attention is paid to the internals on a pipe.

There really should be no such thing as a bad smoking pipe, made by anyone at any price.

Shapes change and engineering has to change as well. But a low price point means that hand work is at a minimum, recycled pipes excepted, because there's no budget for it. To have well engineered internals, like a polished airway, polished chamfer at the junction of the stem and shank, carefully engineered stem to spread the smoke, etc requires more time and work and means added cost. At the basic level a pipe is properly engineered if it has a cavity for tobacco and a hole to draw the smoke.

There's also another element that contributes to the smoking qualities of a pipe, the materials from which it is made. Briar is an organic substance and its properties vary, depending on what the wood has been subjected to while it's in the ground as well as how it is treated from the point of being harvested to the pipe smoker's rack. So it's entirely possible to engineer properly and still have a stinker of a smoker.

 

[gloucesterman]

I haven't bought a no name pipe since I stopped buying basket pipes (that's more years ago than I care to admit to). You get what you pay for as a rule. Sablebrush has already made a compelling case why getting a quality pipe under these circumstances is unlikely so no need to revisit it. That's not to say there isn't a bargin out there to be had but buying from that market isn't "hit or miss" in getting a good pipe. If it happens it was a mistake for all the reasons already stated.

 

[frozenchurchwarden]

It's not rocket science. Missouri Meerschaum has the best draw on the market, everyone knows it, people talk about it, but no-one making briar besides carvers charging $300+ will attempt anything like that. For what reason is beyond me.

And then there's the carvers charging top dollar that put no more thought into it than you get with a $40 pipe, like Ashton, you just get the same design made by hand instead of machine, and the machine actually does a better job.

The insides of my molded stems are shiny smooth.

The buttons on my Nording Churchwarden stems are perfectly centered and polished, my Ferndown Churchwarden stem is off center and even more restrictive (and that's my most expensive pipe).

Making a broad flat airway in a molded stem is all that's required, but in an industry over a hundred years old people making $5 cobs are the only ones to try it.
As for the quality of the briar, after 20 pipes of nearly every price I have yet to see a significant difference. My Rossi had a bit of a bitter flavour to it out of the box, but it certainly wasn't enough to affect the smoke.

Maybe 40 years from now I'll have been smoking the same blend in the same pipe for decades on end and I'll care about the briar, but for now it's a non issue. There's more than enough carvers out there that aren't even using briar anyway.

 

[sablebrush52]

It's not rocket science. Missouri Meerschaum has the best draw on the market, everyone knows it, people talk about it, but no-one making briar besides carvers charging $300+ will attempt anything like that. For what reason is beyond me.

Everybody? Kim Jong-un knows this? And you have personally spoken with ALL pipe makers charging less than $300 for their pipes and they refuse or are terrified to make a decent pipe? Amazing. I learn something new everyday.

And then there's the carvers charging top dollar that put no more thought into it than you get with a $40 pipe, like Ashton, you just get the same design made by hand instead of machine, and the machine actually does a better job.

Please provide specifics. I'd like to avoid the swindlers. Machine made pipes are just as good, if not better than hand made pipes. It's just a method that produces less flawless firsts. However, for some collectors, there's more to pipe collecting than two holes.
I like my Nordings as well. I've never advocated that you have to spend a ton of money to get a well made pipe, quite the opposite. One of my favorite desert isle pipes is a humble Ehrlich that cost me a whopping $2 on eBay. But we're talking about cheap basket pipes here.

As for the quality of the briar, after 20 pipes of nearly every price I have yet to see a significant difference.

Which doesn't mean that there isn't one. But stinkers and angels come from all makes and in all prices. Briar is always a wild card.

 

[frozenchurchwarden]

What we need is a Wiki page for people to list the specs of their pipes.
I guess "Best" wasn't the right word to use to describe the draw on a Missouri Meerschaum. Some people like a draw more closed than open, it is a case of preference. My point is that people are searching for this characteristic in briar and I haven't seen a reference for an economical pipe yet.
Please note that the diameter of the airway and the correctly made transition in the button are two different issues.

The problem with my Ashton, Ferndown, and almost every pipe I own, is when the round shaft of the airway in the stem stops at the same point as the flat slot starts, and there is no blending or overlap of the two, causing restriction.

On my Ashton Billiard the difference after fixing that issue was particularly dramatic, and the combination of the price and the severity of restriction on that particular pipe probably makes me overly passionate about the subject right now.

My Sav 320 just barely qualified as correctly made, it cleaned up easily, but the 614 isn't. No-one says what's what and there's no way to tell unless you handle it yourself or ask customer service people who may not even know what you're talking about to look for a subtle characteristic in the stem of every pipe they have in stock. If a retailer cares about the information you're looking for they're probably going to have it written down already, if they don't they're probably not going to be able to reliably tell you.

To sum it up I suppose I could just say "the pipe industry hasn't entered the 21st century yet". Customers are still largely in the dark. I've seen it with other hobbies that over time awareness of materials and industry practices does get better, It's a process that takes many years though.

 

[sablebrush52]

All good points. I've opened up and/or smoothed out the transition in the stem airway on both handmade and molded stems. One of the things that I liked about the Piersel that I just got is Scottie's attention to that important detail. One of the things that I like about my old Barlings is the way that they engineered the airway in the stem.

 

[lonestar]

Everybody? Kim Jong-un knows this?

Now that's funny :rofl: