Fuel Switched off Air India 787 Crash

[Briar Lee]

Lawyer lesson number 39:
Don’t refer to YouTube as evidence at trial.

Trials are artificial constructs.

Most magnificent game in peacetime!.

It requires two practicing lawyers and a lawyer umpire wearing a black robe.

One lawyer usually works for a paycheck from a big corporation or the state.

And there’s the lawyer who is the chosen champion of the little guy.

Somewhere in Mumbai is a 90 year old man grieving his good, loyal, and faithful son.

The law presumes his son, at most, made a mistake.

If those switches there was an airworthiness advisory on didn’t fail, you know?

And no matter how it comes out, the lawyer gets to go home,,,,usually.

Philadelphia Lawyer

Woodie Guthrie version

 

[renfield]

The 56 year old captain had a 90 year old father and along with a much younger sidekick was trusted with a 787:

Xxxx

The price of a new Boeing 787 Dreamliner varies by model, but generally ranges from $211.8 million to $338.4 million. Specifically, the 787-8

I’m not sure I get your point, or if you were even replying to my post. If you’re implying I think it was criminal action, I don’t.

I said that it’s extremely improbable that the switches in the cockpit were accidentally manipulated by the crew.

The 787 systems are complex to a level beyond any previous airliner, both hardware and software. Accounting for every possibility and interaction during design is almost impossible.

Until all the forensics and engineering review is done we won’t know if it was human or machine that failed. It’s possible we’ll never know for sure.

The 737 rudder hard-over accidents are a case in point. No definitive cause was ever found, just some good possibilities.

 

[Briar Lee]

I’m not sure I get your point, or if you were even replying to my post. If you’re implying I think it was criminal action, I don’t.

I said that it’s extremely improbable that the switches in the cockpit were accidentally manipulated by the crew.

The 787 systems are complex to a level beyond any previous airliner, both hardware and software. Accounting for every possibility and interaction during design is almost impossible.

Until all the forensics and engineering review is done we won’t know if it was human or machine that failed. It’s possible we’ll never know for sure.

The 737 rudder hard-over accidents are a case in point. No definitive cause was ever found, just some good possibilities.

Really there are three possibilities

A defective machine

A pilot mistake

Murder

We each bring our own viewpoint into a debate about a news event like this.

Let’s start with a normal flight and see what’s different

The pilot in command (32 year old First Officer) was suppposed to hand fly the plane to altitude

And the 56 year old Captain, three flights from retirement, was supposed to manually lift the landing gear. That was never done. The switch is down.

If the Captain made a brain fart, a wrong movement, a mistake, he might have asked HIMSELF

Why did you cut off ?

And then tried to correct his error

Even a pro like Rhonda Vincent messes up.

Rhonda Vincent has more hours on that guitar, singing twangers, than the Captain had on jet aircraft.

She had the honor of singing Bill Anderson’s biggest hit after City Lights to THE Bill Anderson at his birthday party.

She was backed by a dream team band of pickers and back up singers.

And she missed her cue.

Watch her correct.

 

[The Benedictine]

This seemed intentional to me.

 

[Briar Lee]

This seemed intentional to me.

Me too, in my heart of hearts.

But it will be virtually impossible to definitively prove.

Over the course of many centuries in Great Britain there was a small and select group of lawyers and judges, who case by case made the common law.

I spent forty one years before the bar.

The presumption that all men love life, and avoid death is a natural one based on two millennia since Christ went to the Garden and prayed—-

Would this cup be lifted?

The Captain had the opportunity to crash the plane

He certainly would have had the means to crash the plane

It could be argued he had motive

But he either asked himself Why did you cut off or was asked that

And he was supposed to lift the gear, but never did.

And if it’s a mistake, that makes the most sense.

Detroit has made automatic transmissions that will refuse to destroy the transmission for a long, long time.

But Boeing never considered pilot suicide in designing fuel switches.

They will now.

BTW, I understand now the cockpit voice recorders are channeled and in stereo. They know which pilot said what. There is a reason they don’t tell us.

The Captian’s family wins either way.

The pilot in command may have asked

Why did you cut off?

And the Captain (thinking he’d lifted the gear) replied I didn’t

And the Captain may have asked himself.

Even better that he made a mistake.

But one of them, after ten seconds, relit one engine and then four seconds later the other. They may not know which one.

One of them made a mayday call. That they do know who.

The investigators could get lucky.

But, in the Dr Forsyth case the gun is missing

'Secret life' detailed in extensive report on Missouri doctor found dead of apparent suicide

Investigators stated in the report that Dr. Forsyth "lived a secret life unknown to most of his friends and family."

www.5newsonline.com

 

[JOHN72]

I remember flying in these winged scrap from Kathmandu to Lukla and back, I even made a video inside, when the takeoff and the journey. There was an American guy next to me, we looked at each other without saying a word, I was smiling while recording and praying to God, to get the hell to land safely. It was horrible. I've never liked flying in any winged contraption that gets off the damn ground. I was toasted by the sun, sometimes I was mistaken for a Nepali, a Mexican, a Turk, a Moroccan, a Cuban, and once I was mistaken for a Spaniard.

 

[Briar Lee]

I remember flying in these winged scrap from Kathmandu to Lukla and back, I even made a video inside, when the takeoff and the journey. There was an American guy next to me, we looked at each other without saying a word, I was smiling while recording and praying to God, to get the hell to land safely. It was horrible, I never like flying in anything that is far from the ground.View attachment 404604

The sixth chapter of Matthew essentially reads that it does no good to pray, that God knows what we need before we ask for it.

Be that as it may there are no atheists on an airplane and I’ve prayed about nonstop during every flight I’ve ever taken.

Statistics and insurance actuaries tell us flying on a commercial airplane is many times safer than the car ride to the airport.

The system for general commercial aviation has developed over many decades.

Even the cheapest puddle jumper commercial plane costs tens of millions of dollars, most big ones cost hundreds of millions.

Every tiny part is cataloged and tested and maintenance logs kept.

Redundancy is built onto all systems.

There are always two English speaking pilots and the plane is constantly directed by an English speaking air traffic controller, anywhere on this earth.

And yet, if the plane can be flown by a man that same man can crash the plane, either by mishap or on purpose.

Someday the planes may be like automatic elevators and carnival rides.

Which sort of spook me too, you know?

We hate being the passenger.

We all want to be in command of our fate.

 

[BingBong]

I remember flying in these winged scrap from Kathmandu to Lukla and back, I even made a video inside, when the takeoff and the journey. There was an American guy next to me, we looked at each other without saying a word, I was smiling while recording and praying to God, to get the hell to land safely. It was horrible. I've never liked flying in any winged contraption that gets off the damn ground. I was toasted by the sun, sometimes I was mistaken for a Nepali, a Mexican, a Turk, a Moroccan, a Cuban, and once I was mistaken for a Spaniard.View attachment 404604

Look at that teeny-weeny propeller, how sweet. And you still got on that thing?

 

[JOHN72]

Look at that teeny-weeny propeller, how sweet. And you still got on that thing?

We could see the pilots, as they only had one curtain, which was open, very nice embroidered, probably made of Yak thread. The stewardess gave us some candy. In the hotel in Lukla, most of them were Americans, many of them elite sportsmen. I see the photos and my hair stands on end, to see that junk on wheels.

 

[Pipe_Guard]

it was deliberate. what more do you need to know.

Its not like a damn blender.

 

[Briar Lee]

it was deliberate. what more do you need to know.

Its not like a damn blender.

Why it matters is, that pilot knew, it was a fatal flaw in a 250 million dollar aircraft.

Why do the aircraft makers not disable the fuel switches when the avionics know they are at full throttle after a take off roll?

There is no scenario where that should be allowed.

I had a buddy who owned an early sixties Chevy II with a Powerglide. It was great fun for him to stomp it and reach sixty, put the selector in reverse and the wheels would spin backwards until it stopped, he’d look out the back and reverse to about forty or fifty, then he’d toss it in first and do it all over again.

But my 1972 Gran Torino would not go in reverse above a low speed. Neutral, yes, reverse, no.

 

[Pipe_Guard]

Why it matters is, that pilot knew, it was a fatal flaw in a 250 million dollar aircraft.

Why do the aircraft makers not disable the fuel switches when the avionics know they are at full throttle after a take off roll?

There is no scenario where that should be allowed.

I had a buddy who owned an early sixties Chevy II with a Powerglide. It was great fun for him to stomp it and reach sixty, put the selector in reverse and the wheels would spin backwards until it stopped, he’d look out the back and reverse to about forty or fifty, then he’d toss it in first and do it all over again.

But my 1972 Gran Torino would not go in reverse above a low speed. Neutral, yes, reverse, no.

there was a russian plane crash before 2000. i believe the 1980s using a non russian jet liner.

THe pilot had his son on board, and during the fligh tlet the kid fly the plane. The plane was on autopilot and auto corrected what the kid did.

Somehow the 15 year old disabled the auto pilot system by doing an accidental procedure that was never cataloged in the manual. barrel roll and a elevator change. the kid then lawn darted the thing. all dead.

 

[frozenchurchwarden]

there was a russian plane crash before 2000. i believe the 1980s using a non russian jet liner.

THe pilot had his son on board, and during the fligh tlet the kid fly the plane. The plane was on autopilot and auto corrected what the kid did.

Somehow the 15 year old disabled the auto pilot system by doing an accidental procedure that was never cataloged in the manual. barrel roll and a elevator change. the kid then lawn darted the thing. all dead.

Autopilot disengages with a certain degree of input.
Gentle inputs will be corrected after you let go of the yoke but dramatic inputs turn off the autopilot.

 

[BingBong]

there was a russian plane crash before 2000. i believe the 1980s using a non russian jet liner.

THe pilot had his son on board, and during the fligh tlet the kid fly the plane. The plane was on autopilot and auto corrected what the kid did.

Somehow the 15 year old disabled the auto pilot system by doing an accidental procedure that was never cataloged in the manual. barrel roll and a elevator change. the kid then lawn darted the thing. all dead.

That was an Airbus, I believe. There are different levels of automation, depending on sensor input.

Kids are good at bypassing systems. Now that we have the Online Safety Bill in action in the UK, teenagers are the only ones who know how to get to porn sites.

 

[renfield]

Why do the aircraft makers not disable the fuel switches when the avionics know they are at full throttle after a take off roll?

There was an Eclipse biz jet departing Chicago Midway about 10 years ago where the throttles stuck at takeoff thrust. The FADEC (full authority digital engine controller) got an out of range value from the thrust lever encoders and so locked the thrust at the last known good value, takeoff thrust. The only way to keep from overspeeding and to get back down was to cut fuel. Power cycling the aircraft would have lead to unpredictable results.

The crew needs to have the ability to control the aircraft.

 

[Briar Lee]

There was an Eclipse biz jet departing Chicago Midway about 10 years ago where the throttles stuck at takeoff thrust. The FADEC (full authority digital engine controller) got an out of range value from the thrust lever encoders and so locked the thrust at the last known good value, takeoff thrust. The only way to keep from overspeeding and to get back down was to cut fuel. Power cycling the aircraft would have lead to unpredictable results.

The crew needs to have the ability to control the aircraft.

Of course the pilots need full control.

As I understand it, if an engine flames out the pilot shuts off the fuel and then turns the fuel on again for a restart.

If they’d have lost one engine they’d have climbed out anyway.

But let’s say both engines quit, exactly when the old man shut off the fuel.

There’s no time to shut down both and restart.

It also corresponds to when the old pilot should have reached up to raise the gear.


If Detroit could kid proof automatic transmissions fifty years ago, it’s doable to not allow a pilot to shut off his fuel when both engines are at thrust before an altitude where it might be needed.

He did it on purpose—but it might have been a brain fart.

 

[renfield]

Having a computer with that kind of authority means additional FMEA (failure modes and effects analysis) that touches several big systems. The complexity of the analysis grows at a literally exponential rate with inputs and controls. The odds of introducing another, likely more deeply buried, problem increases. Software cert on an airplane is already almost incomprehensibly difficult. I know because I’ve been involved with it. Besides analyzing the nominal system and software you have to tolerate bit errors happening anywhere in the code at any time. Even using state of the art tools and redundant computer systems things still slip through. More code and control is more chance of problems.

Early in the B-2 development it was discovered that if you taxied at exactly 7 kts for several seconds the flight control computers would all go tits up. The nosewheel steering is controlled by the flight control system. One set of gains was defined for above 7 kts, another for less than 7 kts. Exactly 7kts had no flight control gains defined. Despite all the analysis and testing they found that one by unintentionally experiencing it at Edwards. At least it was on the ground.

In the end for certification you’d still end up having to have a shutoff similar to what already exists to override a computer/software problem, so no avoiding a bad actor in the cockpit cutting fuel.

A malicious crewman could still pull the pilot/copilot flight control disconnect and fly the plane into the ground if they wanted to. Then you’d need a system to prevent the crew from having control of the flight controls during parts of the flight to avoid that.

Crew training and screening is probably a better place to focus.

 

[Briar Lee]

Having a computer with that kind of authority means additional FMEA (failure modes and effects analysis) that touches several big systems. The complexity of the analysis grows at a literally exponential rate with inputs and controls. The odds of introducing another, likely more deeply buried, problem increases. Software cert on an airplane is already almost incomprehensibly difficult. I know because I’ve been involved with it. Besides analyzing the nominal system and software you have to tolerate bit errors happening anywhere in the code at any time. Even using state of the art tools and redundant computer systems things still slip through. More code and control is more chance of problems.

Early in the B-2 development it was discovered that if you taxied at exactly 7 kts for several seconds the flight control computers would all go tits up. The nosewheel steering is controlled by the flight control system. One set of gains was defined for above 7 kts, another for less than 7 kts. Exactly 7kts had no flight control gains defined. Despite all the analysis and testing they found that one by unintentionally experiencing it at Edwards. At least it was on the ground.

In the end for certification you’d still end up having to have a shutoff similar to what already exists to override a computer/software problem, so no avoiding a bad actor in the cockpit cutting fuel.

A malicious crewman could still pull the pilot/copilot flight control disconnect and fly the plane into the ground if they wanted to. Then you’d need a system to prevent the crew from having control of the flight controls during parts of the flight to avoid that.

Crew training and screening is probably a better place to focus.

On MA 370 a pilot practiced a murder suicide and except for a sat link he must not have considered, his family would surely had collected something for his death. Even today he has defenders.

Now every multiple engine pilot on this planet knows, when he’s second seat and is supposed to lift the gear he can shut off the fuel instead. It can never be proven he didn’t make a mistake.


The ordinary purpose of those switches is to start the plane on the ground and shut it off again after landing.

Every car I’ve ever owned with electric windows has a kid switch that disables the windows until I let them.

Let’s put two of those, one on each side.

Fuel on—

Check fuel on—-

Fuel on lock —

Check fuel on lock—

After they get airborne-

Disengage fuel on lock—

Check disengage fuel on lock

You’d want those fuel lock switches to be fused so they could pull a fuse and gain manual control. You could add a buzzer to remind the pilots to unlock the fuel switches. But only when there might be a survivable reason to shut off the fuel should either pilot be allowed to shut off the fuel.

But in a 250 million dollar airplane how much could those cost?

The second seat pilots lift the gear how many times a day?

Eliminate the temptation, I say.