Air Cured Versus Flue Cured Va: What's The Difference?

[mawnansmiff]

I often see listed as components of blends air cured and flue/kiln cured Virginias but I have to confess I am unable to tell one from the other in flavour.
What sort of things should I be looking for to differentiate twixt the two? I do wonder if flue/kiln dried might have a little smokiness to it but that is purely guesswork.
I do have an understanding of the processes involved but not the outcome of those processes.
Any tips guys?
Regards,
Jay.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Fried, boiled, baked, grilled... it's all in how it's cooked, prepared. Virginias are a thin leaf variety with lots of starch. That starch has to be turned to sugar to make it palatable. Well, in my own opinion. Some like the grassy- like qualities of air cured. But, flue cure is where the leaf is heated to a certain temperature that cooks the leaf up to gold, red, brown, colors. The lighter the leaf, the more acidic tasting and grassy the leaf tastes. Air cure leaves the leaf raw with the color of hay with a more hay-like flavor, without a natural sweetness. The more red and deeper color the leaf is the more sweet and stewed vegetable-like sweetness is brought out.
Almost none of the companies will say that their Virginias are air-cured. But, if the leaf is only lightly flue-cured the closer to air cured it tastes. Raw. IMO.

Some companies will heavily process a lighter color with honey or pressing into flake to make their Virginias a brighter more acidic flavor, like lemony. But, some don't process their lighter Virginias at all, creating an almost too hay-ish flavor, harsher on the tongue and mouth.
I prefer a more red Virginia, as it has less of an acidic taste to me, and brings forward a more stewed tomatoes or fruity flavor, with deeper tones.
Does that help. It's a brief and not total in explaination, but it might at least get the ball rolling.
"Some" companies will add in a touch of a light Burley to their lighter or air cure to give it some nicotine and attempt a more balanced flavor. Some like it. But, as you've noticed, not all companies will list traces of other leaf added for flavor or blending properties. ::

 

[mawnansmiff]

I was rather hoping you might spot this post Michael :wink:
I read your response twice just so it sank in. One thing however, using Sam Gawith's Golden Glow as a perfect example of a very pale yellow Virginia that has the classic lemony flavours along with fresh mown grass I read that it is a blend of flue cured Virginias.
I could understand it if FVF was described thus (simply because it is darker and has deeper flavours) but it isn't. Therefore I assume FVF to get its flavour and colour purely from the hot pressing which I believe Golden Glow doesn't get.
Would I be right in assuming flue cured and kiln cured are one and the same thing?
Regards,
Jay.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Lots of respond to... there are lemony yellow Virginias that I love. I haven't had the SG one you mentioned, but Newmister has a flake and there a few others that I keep around. FVF gets its flavors from flue curing and blending various colors, but mostly it is a red Virginia. Yes, pressing it helps take the edge off of it.

I'm not exactly sure what kiln cure is, because even flue cure uses a heat, but maybe kiln curing is a more exact heat... just a guess.
My distaste for air cure, comes from sampling some of my own and others attempts at air curing Virginias. Air cure is fine for most Burleys and orientals, but for Virginias it seems to have an ammonia trace left in the flavor. Not so much the taste as what it does to my mouth, a harshness. Even on the lighter flue cures, lemony Virginias, I will get a roughness on my tongue if I smoke them too often in one day. Whereas a red or well aged Virginia I can smoke all day long.

Esoterica has a few bright Virginias, as well as Germain, Dans, and a few others that have brights that are heavily cased in light fruity or licorice casings that I enjoy, but they leave my mouth sore if so smoke them too often. Probably from the curing, but the flavors make them more palatable. But, the casings probably get he blame by most guys.
I will try any Virginia, and even stow back a few in hopes that they will get more mellow with age. My D&R, C&D, and GLP Virginias all seem to have the same qualities. I keep some of them stashed in hopes that they will mellow as said. But, some just seem like after five years that it may be twenty more before they suit me as well as some of my other favorites.
Stoved is a whole other thing, but I would end up with a novel, ha ha.
All in all explore, and try them all. Keep notes on what you think of each, and what it may be that you like and dislike. Without playing with the cure process on your own, one might just be conjecturing in the wind. And, even with making my own cured Virginias, I am still trying to figure it out. But, I at least have a pretty good start, IMO. So, I am no expert, except in my own opinions. ::
I would like to play with fire curing some Virginias. I will play with that next year.

 

[mawnansmiff]

Michael, I'm surprised you haven't tried Golden Glow! I'll send you a sample when I next order. Take a peek at the reviews on Tobaccoreviews.com. It is one blend that I rather like but reckon would be sublime with some age on it.
BTW, the package I sent you last went with one going to Canada and that one arrived today so keep your eye on your letterbox. It had better not get returned to me like before :roll:
I am in the process of acquiring about ten McClelland blends and a whole raft of other US blends, some air cured and some flue cured so I will be on my toes when it comes to determining the different flavours.
Regards,
Jay.

 

[jitterbugdude]

Virginias have a high sugar content in their green leaf. If they are allowed to air cure (over a few months time) the enzymes and bacteria normally present will digest the sugars. In the end you will get a Virginia that is more like a Burley. It will have no sugar in the leaf.
Flue cured on the other hand is put into a chamber as soon as it is picked. Over the course of about 3 days it is subject to increasing temperature to the point the enzymes and most of the bacteria are destroyed. This "sets" the high sugar level in the leaf, making it sweet. The sugars, as they burn will lower the pH of the smoke making it smoother to smoke.
The term "air cured" in the tobacco trade means Burley unless noted otherwise as in " air cured Virginia".

 

[oldgeezersmoker]

This brief article will repay a careful reading.
The most significant sentence in the piece notes the connection between the flavors and fragrances industry and tobacco. The tobacco companies are also huge buyers of sugar. Mother Nature and Old McDonald don't play that much of a role anymore. There are exceptions, but perhaps not as many as we would hope.

 

[toobfreak]

Jay, flue/kiln dried shouldn't necessarily have any smoky quality to it I would think as the heat source may or may not be fire, and is external to where the tobacco is. Heat generated is ducted to where the tobacco is hung so that the rising air column can more quickly dry the leaves. Is there a difference in taste? Between air and flue drying, there will be differences in the amounts of sugars and nicotine, though I'm not sure that nicotine has any particular flavor. Part of the motive to one method or the other might be to get higher or lower sugar levels which should affect the taste, but another reason might just be the climate itself---- if the weather is too cool or damp, air and sun drying might simply lead to mildew and other problems. But as implied above, if the grower air dries for whatever reason (cost?) he could always just add in sugar of his own and that might be why you haven't tasted much difference.

 

[jitterbugdude]

if the grower air dries for whatever reason (cost?) he could always just add in sugar of his own and that might be why you haven't tasted much difference.

Although that makes a lot of sense it is simply not true. Once you air cure a Virginia you can never get it to taste like a Virginia again. An air cured Virginia has a tendency to taste like a very mild Burley.
I would think that manufactures use it because it is a cheap filler.

 

[mawnansmiff]

Oldgeezer, thanks for the link, it made interesting reading. One paragraph in particular struck me...
Non-aged or low quality tobacco is often artificially flavored with these otherwise naturally occurring compounds. Tobacco flavoring is a significant source of revenue for the international multimillion-dollar flavor and fragrance industry.
...as I've always believed most aromatic blends tend to be made up of largely inferior leaf. This tallies with the relative output of such blends as not all tobacco produced can be of the highest quality therefore the 'glut' of lesser quality tobacco gets the goopy fruity flavourings added to hide this fact. I am not alone in thinking that.
Toobfreak, so you are saying that the various methods employed in drying the leaf determines the set of the sugars in the said leaf, this makes much sense now I think about it.
Jitterbug, I am a little puzzled by your comment...
"Once you air cure a Virginia you can never get it to taste like a Virginia again."
...if this is the case then why do so many manufacturers claim that their blends are "Made from the finest air cured Virginia leaf"?
Thanks for all the input thus far folks...I may be a slow learner but I usually get there in the end ::
Regards,
Jay.

 

[jitterbugdude]

Jitterbug, I am a little puzzled by your comment...
"Once you air cure a Virginia you can never get it to taste like a Virginia again."
...if this is the case then why do so many manufacturers claim that their blends are "Made from the finest air cured Virginia leaf"?

Jay, I believe the "made from the finest..anything" Is just a marketing ploy by tobacco companies. Lets face it, how many pipe smokers really know what "finest" of any tobacco is? Unless you've grown, harvested and cured it you just have to take the manufacturers word for it.
Flue curing a Virginia takes a lot more money than air curing so like I said before, I believe manufacturers add air cured Virginia as a cheap filler to be made up for by sauces.
I've air cured a lot of Virginia and flue cured much smaller amounts. Every single person I've ever given a cigarette to or a pipe blend that was predominately air cured all said the same thing.. it does not taste good. Most people comment it tastes somewhat like a cigar. My flue cured on the other hand is very sweet with people I've given it to saying it is good tasting.
When flue curing the "sugars" get set in the leaf. These "sugars" comprise lots of different sucrosesters that all contribute to the taste. Research done by either Leffingwell or Tso (can't remember which one) have shown that the best tasting tobacco is one that has about a 5:1 ratio of sucrosesters to nicotine.
Not saying air cured Virginia does not have its place in a blend. Just saying it is more marketing than anything else. I'm actually surprised that no one has tried to use a marketing gimmick with..."we flue cure only the finest Burley.."

 

[toobfreak]

Jitterbug, I believe you are referring to sucrose esters, a fatty emulsifying agent which aids in sugar crystallization. But like I said before, even if air dried to get a higher nicotine content at the expense of sweetness and flavor, if the blender adds a topping that has its own flavor and sweetness, I'm not sure how the end user tells the difference.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Jitterbug, I may be getting a little feeble in the head, but my first realization of what air cured was (compared to flue cured), was from a package you sent me. Or, am I confusing you with another forum member with jitter in their name? But, I swear you sent me a sample bag of air cured Virginia, along with some home blends and orientals. That was where I started spinning gears on how to handle my own Virginia crops. And, you seemed a little disappointed that I wasn't that crazy about the air cured. or was it sun cured? Hmmm...

 

[jitterbugdude]

Cosmic, Its been a looooong time but I think I sent you strictly flue cured along with some orientals and some VaPers that had some deers tongue in it.
toobfreak

[/quote] I believe you are referring to sucrose esters, a fatty emulsifying agent which aids in sugar crystallization

Yes I am, that's why I mentioned it in my previous post. There are many sucroesters that are in tobacco. The variation in each cultivar is partly what makes it taste unique.
I think maybe we are starting to beat the dead horse somewhat. Since Jay (OP) said he couldn't tell the difference perhaps I should send him some air cured and flue cured. Jay, you up for a side-by-side taste test?

 

[woodsroad]

Jitterbug, Toob and Cosmic: Do the higher temperatures of flue curing (vs air curing) activate enzymes that break down starches to sugars (as in the barley mashing process)?

 

[jitterbugdude]

Do the higher temperatures of flue curing (vs air curing) activate enzymes that break down starches to sugars

Yes. The enzymes convert the starches to sugars. Reducing sugars, Levulose, sucrose etc will increase 2 to 3 fold. During the flue curing process the temp is slowly raised. This temperature rise activates the enzymes. Once the leaf turns yellow the temp is raised to about 130F to kill off the enzymes.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

You can take it up to 180-185F to push for a darker cure, but when you get above 200F you have to be wary of steam. But, You'll get those beautiful red and brown tips, with more tangy and caramel flavors. I called it smokey, but that's not right. It's a woodsy-like flavor.

Which makes me curious about fire curing it.

 

[woodsroad]

But above 130°f the enzymes are finished, right? What effects are at work in the 130º-285º range? A much slower Maillard reaction, retarded by higher moisture and lower temps?
I really need to plant some baccy.

 

[jitterbugdude]

It's been a while since I've read up on the subject but I seem to recall that at about 130F the primary enzymes are killed but a few others remain. After flue curing, the leaf is aged for 1 to 2 years. This allows other enzymes (and I think bacteria too) to make further changes to the leaf. Actually the final temp is near 165F because after the yellowing phase has been set at 130 the temp is driven up to 165 to dry the stems.
Baccy is easy. I'll send you some seeds if you want.

 

[mawnansmiff]

"Jay, you up for a side-by-side taste test?"
Jitterbug, that is awfully kind of you to offer the samples but living in the UK I would wager the p+p costs would make the whole exercise an expensive one. Your generosity is however noted.
I have just had confirmation from member Stan that my order of 12 different McClelland blends has gone through so when they arrive, those along with the blends I currently have will be assessed according to the curing method employed to see if I can spot any particular differences. That should sort out the wheat from the chaff ::
Regards,
Jay.