1898 or 1889? Briar Billiard w/ Silver Work and Amber Stem (Pic Heavy)

[ashdigger]

Okay folks here's another one. This is from 1898 and the Silver is in great shape. I'm going to need to get the pipe professionally restored because the bowl and rim need a little work, but on a pipe this old, I'm not that worker. The pipe is 5 1/2 inches long.
I just finished reading an article by a guy from the London Pipe Club that states that while the pipe was made in Vienna, Austria the silver work is from Birmingham and quite possibly by the Barling folks. Much more research to do and I'm waiting for a response to an email I sent to confirm some facts, but I'm pretty excited by the latest old school addition to my stable.




Here's where I need to step up my research. Unless the type of engraving was just a popular style that was common to most silversmiths during this period the engraving on this pipe is exactly as the engraving on the 1888 one. Same silversmiths? If that's the case then the other pipe (1888) was also Barling 'smithed. The investigation continues.

 

[pagan]

Oh nice, two of the same vintage, what a lucky find

 

[jpmcwjr]

Yes, you've got some history and beauty together!

 

[ashdigger]

For you Hallmark experts ..... here's a weird twist (BTW, I'm a complete amateur at reading hallmarks). There is something about the swirl on the date code that either intrigues me or just bugs me. In my looking up hallmark codes from Birmingham, I came upon this date code:
Forgive the quality....it's a picture of a picure that's been zoomed in....

Please tell me I've had way too much coffee, but it looks closer in shape to the 1847 than is does the other code stamps.

 

[dmcmtk]

I don't see a connection to Barling? It looks like the 1898 Birmingham mark, and my suspicion is the CM&C hallmark, and the CM marks on the pipe and case, are for Charles Maas & CO. See the similar marks here,
http://www.silvercollection.it/DICTIONARYTOBACCONISTC.html

 

[ashdigger]

dmcmtk, Thank you. The reference to Barling is from a London Pipe Club Forum post.

The little I know about Crown:

It was a Viennese company that produced briars of their own, and, collaborated with silversmiths in England, London early on, and later, Birmingham. I've attached a photo of the two in my collection. The cased set (unsmoked) is a "Reading Pipe" with amber & horn mouthpieces & an albatross wing-bone extension is hallmarked London 1894 by the famed London silversmiths, Wm. and Edward Barling. Wm.,as we know, after relying on Vienna for some years, began his own legendary make. I have a .doc about some of this, though it's sketchy.

I'm waiting on an email before I post more from the contributor. I have no problem being wrong. I'd just like to make sure. AND I am no pipe historian. You guys are way smarter than me. Now burn a building down and I'm your huckleberry.
Thank you again.

 

[Sjmiller CPG]

It does not appear to be the either the 1847 or 1898 mark. The 1847 mark had markings inside the loop. The 1898 mark has two points at the top with a separation between them.

 

[dmcmtk]

dmcmtk, Thank you. The reference to Barling is from a London Pipe Club Forum post.

I'm not saying Barling didn't do silver work for CM Crown pipes, as the London Pipe Club post reports. However, one would expect a Barling London hallmark, E.B over W.B which was being used by 1882.
http://www.silvercollection.it/DICTIONARYTOBACCONISTE.html

It does not appear to be the either the 1847 or 1898 mark. The 1847 mark had markings inside the loop. The 1898 mark has two points at the top with a separation between them.

I think one must account for some wear when looking at older hallmarks. Looking at the Birmingham 1875-1899 series of date marks, the 1898 mark does look like the only possibility.
http://www.silvercollection.it/englishsilverhallmarksBIR.html

 

[Sjmiller CPG]

Wear must indeed be taken into account but wear will not result in metal in an area where there was a space without any to begin with.

 

[ashdigger]

Sjmiller, what's you guess? I'm trying to learn.

 

[Sjmiller CPG]

I have not stated my opinion on the year of the hallmark for a reason. I was hoping someone else would question what has seemed curious to me since I first looked at the picture. I am certainly no expert and have not seen every type of pipe made, but to me there is something not right about the band. I hope I am wrong and someone can answer the question but why would a band made for a pipe have what appears to be screw holes in it?

 

[dmcmtk]

I have not stated my opinion on the year of the hallmark for a reason.

I'm not sure I understand how the "screw holes" have anything to do with the date hallmark...?

 

[Sjmiller CPG]

If those are indeed screw holes then that band was originally made for something else and therefore the hallmark would relate to the original item and not the pipe. Unless someone can say for sure those are not screw holes, my opinion is that the pipe dates from the end of the 19th or beginning of the 20th century and the band is from an older item which held some importance to the owner of the pipe.

 

[sablebrush52]

It's not Barling. They operated out of London, not Birmingham, and they signed their work, even when done for BBB, with their EB WB maker's mark.

 

[dmcmtk]

If those are indeed screw holes then that band was originally made for something else and therefore the hallmark would relate to the original item and not the pipe.

So, even if this were the case, what is the hallmark date to your eye?

 

[beefeater33]

Here's a similar one, has some good discussion along with it:

http://pipes.org/forums/messages/23/76982.html?1229955914

Here's one that sold in 2013-- seems to have the curious "screw holes".........

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/penrith-farmers-and-kidds-plc/catalogue-id-srpen10008/lot-3add4190-c644-4e90-9014-a451015f0e9b
I don't know Chit about these old pipes, but I love a good mystery, and I love learning about them!

That's one Helluva pipe, Ash--- enjoy it!!......... ::

 

[ashdigger]

Beefeater, that's exactly the article I was referring to. Interesting stuff.
Also, the "screw holes" must be that manufacturers "signature". Thanks for the find.
As for the pipe and date......just to be clear, it could have been made yesterday and I'm good with it, I like the look and styling.

 

[Sjmiller CPG]

Honestly can't say but by enlarging the first picture you can plainly see it doesn't match either of the stated years.
Would just like to state I am not trying to be a douche about this. I do have some experience in this time of thing. In a previous life I was called on to identify pictures that lacked dates. I was once given a photo of a Hall of Baseball player in which the players arms obscured the logo on his jersey and asked to try to identify a year. I was able to determine that what appeared to be shadow of the players arm on the jersey was actually a part of the obscured logo. Despite the fact that it just a very small fraction of an inch on an 8x10 full body photo of the player, l was able to date the photo as well as determining the team.

 

[ashdigger]

Sjmiller, I completely accept whatever date can be found. I was given those dates and as I stated earlier, it didn't make sense.
I see no douche-dom in your future.

 

[sablebrush52]

I'm not sure that the holes are screw holes. Could just be simple open work.

Not Charles Maas. Maas worked out of London and his mark was C.M., not C.M.&C.