What Makes A Bigger Difference? Where It Is Grown or How It Is Cured?

[karam]

And, they are continually massacred, even Argentina out Frenches the French. French wines have a foot taste, like a sweaty foot. This used to be a sign that the wine was aged on the lees (dead yeast cells). When a wine ages on the lees it has less of the complex molecules that cause headaches and hangovers. But, it has that foot taste. Wines and cheese were traditionally paired on that foot taste, but the rest of the world was marketed out of that traditional cheesy winey footiness and into a more sweet wine palate.

I LOVE the "foot taste" analogue! I am not a wine person in any way, give me a good strong weissbier, porter or Guinness, homebrewed mead, or smokey island whisky and I'm happy, hell my preferences in food and drink match my preferences for tobacco: dark, strong and heavy.

But couldn't someone say that Cuban cigars have a hint of a "foot taste" too, and that's part of their draw? Doesn't truffle have a "foot taste"? It's all about thiol compounds giving an earthy taste that makes some people, myself included, go crazy. As I said I'm not a wine person, but will appreciate a nice fruity white in the summer, and a strong footy red in the winter

On another note, I remember reading a few times, in a few places, that Greek/Turkish tobacco seeds grown in the US did NOT produce "Oriental" leaf, the plant switched to become something more like Burley when grown in US soil, so there must be some weight to the terroir theory.

 

[rajangan]

On another note, I remember reading a few times, in a few places, that Greek/Turkish tobacco seeds grown in the US did NOT produce "Oriental" leaf, the plant switched to become something more like Burley when grown in US soil, so there must be some weight to the terroir theory.

I would like to read that myself. I know people who have grown orientals in America for at least a decade and there is no such change in genetics.

More than likely, what you read was referring to the fact that orientals grown with American spacing and fertilization rates come out very differently. Moreover, the sun curing techniques in Turkey are exceedingly labour intensive due to the number of leaves per plant, and this article you read may have also referred to tobacco which was air cured instead of sun cured.

In Turkey, depending on the variety, spacing ranges from 4" & 12“ between plants, while in America it ranges between 24" and 36". Plants in America have much greater opportunity to become tall and large because of this, sometimes having leaves ~2 to 5x the size, and a couple times the height of their Turkish or Balkan counterpart, depending on the strain. Plants in America also receive more fertilization and irrigation. American plants get more attention, like having suckers removed, which increases leaf size, but decreases leaf number.

 

[hawky454]

jitterbugdude. He makes a perique from his homegrown semois that is amazing.

Yes it is! I still have a little bit left that I’m trying to stretch out. I would love to try my hand at homemade Perique. I would like to try my hand at reproducing Acadian Gold too! Someday... hopefully.

 

[hawky454]

So do home growers think that commercial blends are complete shite? I’ve only had very little experience with some homemade/home grown blends (all from past members here) they were all very good but very different from commercial blends. I wouldn’t really say one is better than the other but I know that my palate is more familiar with commercial blends so I tend to be more comfortable with them just merely based on familiarity. But I could see how once you go home grown, you never go back, especially when you are smoking the fruit of your labor.

 

[rajangan]

So do home growers think that commercial blends are complete shite? I’ve only had very little experience with some homemade/home grown blends (all from past members here) they were all very good but very different from commercial blends. I wouldn’t really say one is better than the other but I know that my palate is more familiar with commercial blends so I tend to be more comfortable with them just merely based on familiarity. But I could see how once you go home grown, you never go back, especially when you are smoking the fruit of your labor.

I don't consider it shite, unless if it truly is bad. I respect the better tobacco companies for sticking it out for the love of it. Processing is often necessary. Consider all the threads about moldy Gawith. It's difficult to do business, and if using certain ingredients and techniques puts food on their tables and tobacco that approaches integrity and purity in people's pipes, that's awesome. I'm not a purist.

If I must confess, what bothers me is the imbued mystery and reverence of certain tobaccos that is created by misunderstanding or misinformation, and parrotted until it becomes gospel. It kind of turns me off.

 

[rajangan]

So do home growers think that commercial blends are complete shite? I’ve only had very little experience with some homemade/home grown blends (all from past members here) they were all very good but very different from commercial blends. I wouldn’t really say one is better than the other but I know that my palate is more familiar with commercial blends so I tend to be more comfortable with them just merely based on familiarity. But I could see how once you go home grown, you never go back, especially when you are smoking the fruit of your labor.

I also think regular tobacco smokers are, in a sense, missing out of something that they would probably really enjoy, and would save them money and add to their quality of life. That's one other reason for taking about it with people.

 

[hawky454]

I also think regular tobacco smokers are, in a sense, missing out of something that they would probably really enjoy, and would save them money and add to their quality of life. That's one other reason for taking about it with people.

I agree, it sounds like something that I would truly enjoy and fully plan on growing my own in the future. Sounds to me like a very staisfying.... hobby? Can I call it a hobby? Is someone gonna get their knickers in a wad if I call it a hobby? I’ll just go ahead and call it a hobby!

 

[karam]

I would like to read that myself. I know people who have grown orientals in America for at least a decade and there is no such change in genetics.

More than likely, what you read was referring to the fact that orientals grown with American spacing and fertilization rates come out very differently. Moreover, the sun curing techniques in Turkey are exceedingly labour intensive due to the number of leaves per plant, and this article you read may have also referred to tobacco which was air cured instead of sun cured.

In Turkey, depending on the variety, spacing ranges from 4" & 12“ between plants, while in America it ranges between 24" and 36". Plants in America have much greater opportunity to become tall and large because of this, sometimes having leaves ~2 to 5x the size, and a couple times the height of their Turkish or Balkan counterpart, depending on the strain. Plants in America also receive more fertilization and irrigation. American plants get more attention, like having suckers removed, which increases leaf size, but decreases leaf number.

This makes a lot of sense, I really can't recall, sadly, where I read (could have been here, fairtrade, other sites, or all of the above!), and what exactly I read, but it's likely a story paraphrased a few times until it became "Orientals grown in the US don't produce Oriental leaf/become burley".

My background is biochemistry and biology, so when I have time I may look for any research on tobacco variety genetics and what they do to smoking product - I am sure big tobacco has done this research decades ago now, but the results are unlikely to be publicly available AND the variables from plant to cured leaf, to kiln, to process and casing/toping to smoking in our pipes and what it tastes like to different people are so many that I doubt anyone would have done it systematically enough for any conclusive results. As you suggest, I'd put more weight in differences in tobacco grown in different places be due to tropism than genetics, as these won't change in a single generation.

The best I can find is this, which basically has a small line saying that attempts to produce Shekk-el-bint in the US failed.

 

[hawky454]

All I know is that Semoise grown in the US tastes just like Semoise grown in Belgium (or wherever the commercial stuff is grown). Actually, the home grown stuff I had was maybe even better? It’s hard to say.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

So do home growers think that commercial blends are complete shite?

Absolutely not! I mean, I make an awesome hamburger on the grill, but I still crave a Whopper from time to time.
I don’t grow enough to only smoke my own, and besides, there are some awesome flakes out there.

 

[hawky454]

Absolutely not! I mean, I make an awesome hamburger on the grill, but I still crave a Whopper from time to time.
I don’t grow enough to only smoke my own, and besides, there are some awesome flakes out there.

Good analogy! I was just craving a Whopper last night but alas, Burger King closes at 11 now! Even the drive through!!! What’s going on with the world! I had to settle for Wendy’s.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Before I started back working out, I had a McDouble Cheeseburger problem. Everytime I was driving errands I’d stop and pick up a small Double Cheese and eat it as a snack... which led to almost not being able to see my junk below my belt. Nothing scares the hell out of me like the fear of not seeing my own junk, ha ha. That, and a damn CPAP machine. I’d rather run five miles a day that sleep in space gear.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Jitter grew some of the absolute tastiest Turkish leaf that I had ever tasted. I mean, so tasty that I could just smoke bowls of it by itself. I have grown some, but mine was never like his. He did direct me to crowd them and use "different" soils, which led to me redoing my beds with the mix I use now. But, I just never tried growing it again, mostly because I had settled on the seed selections that I used.

You hear all sorts of lore about gardening that doesn't pan out, but it's been passed down so often that it is taken as fact. For example, I have heard many gardeners say to never plant your bell peppers near hot peppers or the bells will take on the heat. This is ridiculous. I plant my peppers staggered, anchos, bells, seranos, bananas, jalapenos, etc... And, I have never had a hot bell, nor a hot banana pepper. Now, if I took seed stock from those and planted them the following year, yes... But, the error just lies in a misunderstanding... and it still remains gospel to many many gardeners.

Funny thing, when I told my wife that I was going to start growing tobacco, she had a fit. "I left the Blue Ridge to keep from having to marry a damn tobacco farmer, and I came down here and married a jeweler. Now, you want to go and grow tobacco." For months it was constant beratement. Then after a year, her brothers came down to visit, and I overheard her telling them in the yard, "Yes, he can do anything. He grows his own tobacco, makes his own wines, and grows everything we eat. He is my superman." My chest swelled up with a newfound pride. There's nothing like having a good woman brag about your endeavors.

My first year, I didn't have a flue for curing. I was air drying everything, even the bright leaf. I wasn't going to talk about my disappointments in how it tasted. I mean the burley was good. But, the rest was just harsh and tore at my throat. I stacked most of the leaf in a Styrofoam cooler and just put it in the barn, where it was kicked around for a couple of years. I had forgotten about it, actually I vaguely remember throwing it away, but my mind plays tricks like that. I was still growing tobacco and trying different things, but I found that cooler, and gave it another try. And, it blew my mind. I wow'd myself. So, if anyone is just getting into this, be patient. Don't let a few stumbles or first impressions bring you down. I don't have the full understanding of the science of curing, but there is some magic in just letting it sit.

 

[rajangan]

Jitter grew some of the absolute tastiest Turkish leaf that I had ever tasted. I mean, so tasty that I could just smoke bowls of it by itself. I have grown some, but mine was never like his. He did direct me to crowd them and use "different" soils, which led to me redoing my beds with the mix I use now. But, I just never tried growing it again, mostly because I had settled on the seed selections that I used.

You hear all sorts of lore about gardening that doesn't pan out, but it's been passed down so often that it is taken as fact. For example, I have heard many gardeners say to never plant your bell peppers near hot peppers or the bells will take on the heat. This is ridiculous. I plant my peppers staggered, anchos, bells, seranos, bananas, jalapenos, etc... And, I have never had a hot bell, nor a hot banana pepper. Now, if I took seed stock from those and planted them the following year, yes... But, the error just lies in a misunderstanding... and it still remains gospel to many many gardeners.

Funny thing, when I told my wife that I was going to start growing tobacco, she had a fit. "I left the Blue Ridge to keep from having to marry a damn tobacco farmer, and I came down here and married a jeweler. Now, you want to go and grow tobacco." For months it was constant beratement. Then after a year, her brothers came down to visit, and I overheard her telling them in the yard, "Yes, he can do anything. He grows his own tobacco, makes his own wines, and grows everything we eat. He is my superman." My chest swelled up with a newfound pride. There's nothing like having a good woman brag about your endeavors.

My first year, I didn't have a flue for curing. I was air drying everything, even the bright leaf. I wasn't going to talk about my disappointments in how it tasted. I mean the burley was good. But, the rest was just harsh and tore at my throat. I stacked most of the leaf in a Styrofoam cooler and just put it in the barn, where it was kicked around for a couple of years. I had forgotten about it, actually I vaguely remember throwing it away, but my mind plays tricks like that. I was still growing tobacco and trying different things, but I found that cooler, and gave it another try. And, it blew my mind. I wow'd myself. So, if anyone is just getting into this, be patient. Don't let a few stumbles or first impressions bring you down. I don't have the full understanding of the science of curing, but there is some magic in just letting it sit.

I haven't had success with small leaf types of orientals either. I planted them closely as one should. Yenidge, Canik, and Lataquie, but they all ended up difficult to burn. I suspect the soil was too rich. It's been 4 years since I grew Canik, and I'm just starting to use it now, and only in blends. Great flavour though.

I didn't flue cure my first good sized crop of Virginia either, and it had terrible tongue bite, but I learned that if I make it into (unflavored) black cavendish, via the pressure cooker method, that it's awesome to smoke, even unblended. I'm savoring the last of it still.

I try new strains every year, and I keep looking back at one's I want to regrow, but never do, like Kumanovo. It's a really interesting tobacco, and you'll never find anything like it on the market, even as whole leaf. It's in a class of tobacco called Hungarian. Best I can describe it, it's like if you crossed a Virginia, and a Nicaraguan cigar filler. It came out sweet and spicy. It made great cavendish.

Japan 8 is a dark tobacco that's kinda chocolatey, licorice-y, cigar-ey. High in nicotine. It's funky and unpleasant straight so I wouldn't grow more than a few.

Kasturi and Samporis are Indonesian sun cured tobaccos. Samporis is really low in pH so you gotta add burley in a pipe, but it makes great kreteks. Kasturi is hard to describe... super high in nicotine and adds a kick to any blend.

This year, I'm growing an unknown variety collected from a village in East Timor. So far, my samplings have indicated to me that it is a Virginia.

So, what I'm saying is that one advantage to growing your own is the ability to try things you normally wouldn't be able to buy.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Japan 8 is a dark tobacco that's kinda chocolatey, licorice-y, cigar-ey. High in nicotine. It's funky and unpleasant straight so I wouldn't grow more than a few.

Japan8 is my all time favorite to add that bit of flavoring to a blend. I keep forgetting about it when I write on here, but it an amazing flavor. And, it is one that Jitter says he doesn't taste the licorice, so I am a little proud that I do get that flavor. He outdoes me on so many other leaf.
I just plant it in the front beds as an ornamental, so it's in good soil, along with my tiger lillies, and other bedding plants. I let it flower. Maybe that's why I get the flavors. But, it is a pretty plant.

 

[chilllucky]

Yes it is! I still have a little bit left that I’m trying to stretch out. I would love to try my hand at homemade Perique. I would like to try my hand at reproducing Acadian Gold too! Someday... hopefully.

I made a thread about just that last year!

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I'm really thrilled that we are getting some more homegrowers on here. You can all help keep me honest, and more to help spread the word. It may come down to one day, people buying pipes tobaccos at Farmer's Markets in twists and plugs. Wouldn't that be cool.

 

[chilllucky]

Cosmic folklore was my inspiration to grow my own. I just took the tips off my last Virginias last week. They're all air curing in a shed, as I have not yet followed him into flue building.

 

[rajangan]

Cosmic folklore was my inspiration to grow my own. I just took the tips off my last Virginias last week. They're all air curing in a shed, as I have not yet followed him into flue building.View attachment 43854

Nice looking leaf!

I have flue cured several years. I recently moved and I don't have the time or cash to set up a permanent curing shed just yet, so I'm sun and fire curing this year.

That said, you might want to read this post:

Flue curing encouragement

Building a flue-cure chamber is far less work than growing even a tiny crop of tobacco. Bob Yes, wholeheartedly agree, Bob. I've seen a bit of this sentiment lately--that flue curing is for the "advanced" grower--and it tends to come from people who to my knowledge have not flue cured. We...

fairtradetobacco.com

 

[rajangan]

Japan8 is my all time favorite to add that bit of flavoring to a blend. I keep forgetting about it when I write on here, but it an amazing flavor. And, it is one that Jitter says he doesn't taste the licorice, so I am a little proud that I do get that flavor. He outdoes me on so many other leaf.
I just plant it in the front beds as an ornamental, so it's in good soil, along with my tiger lillies, and other bedding plants. I let it flower. Maybe that's why I get the flavors. But, it is a pretty plant.

I have not actually grown japan 8, but I have cured it twice. A guy I know grows it every year in a farm field with full sun and lots of space. Last year I took some and sun cured it and it's got that licorice flavour to it, but stronger than 4 years prior when it was grown in the same field. Maybe because I sun cured it? I'm curious as to why.

Edit: clearly skychaser gets the flavour too because he's the guy who wrote it in the seed description.