What Makes A Bigger Difference? Where It Is Grown or How It Is Cured?

[cosmicfolklore]

California wines went up against the best the French could offer and massacred them.

And, they are continually massacred, even Argentina out Frenches the French. French wines have a foot taste, like a sweaty foot. This used to be a sign that the wine was aged on the lees (dead yeast cells). When a wine ages on the lees it has less of the complex molecules that cause headaches and hangovers. But, it has that foot taste. Wines and cheese were traditionally paired on that foot taste, but the rest of the world was marketed out of that traditional cheesy winey footiness and into a more sweet wine palate.

 

[mso489]

I think pipe smokers pick up some detail on the blends they smoke regularly over time, being alert to who owns the blender and where they source the tobacco, sometimes specific blenders by name, and contractors if they are used, and so forth. So most of us can't spot sources and processes randomly out of the blue, but we may know about some of our old favorites, at least to a degree.

On wine, North Carolina has struggled mightily for decades to refine a wine industry, though it is probably mostly too warm a climate for many varietals. California and to some degree New York State have the right climate, soil, and expertise. Anyone for some good old Scuppernong?

 

[cosmicfolklore]

think pipe smokers pick up some detail on the blends they smoke regularly over time,

The key words in your thought is "blends" and "blenders." There are very few tobaccos on the market that are a single leaf from a single crop, Semois and McCrannies are the only two that come to mind. But, the very job of a blender is to mix tobaccos and casings to keep giving the market a consistent product, year after year, despite differences the tobaccos may have. And, a blend intentionally masks any differences because it is a mix.

 

[chilllucky]

The answer, then, to what makes the biggest difference is "how it's processed".

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Wouldn't it be neat to be able to tag along with the tobacco to see how it's graded and changed all along the process? I think it was Sykes who confirmed for me that the growers, processors, and blenders all have different jobs independent of each other to where they may or may not have any idea what is happening along that chain.

 

[Ahi Ka]

But, is it Kiwi flavored?

Just working through the deeming regs paper work with FDA for captain black green ?

 

[Ahi Ka]

I thought they can't have tobacco in New Zealand..

You can grown your own and purchase from overseas. The difference is now to import you need to apply for a permit and use a freight forwarding carrier rather than air mail.

 

[--dante--]

To add...
Just growing one season with say... Cuban seed in say... Alabama. You are not going to get huge difference that first year. It will be very Cubanish, if I follow along with how Cuban farmers prep the tobaccos.
But, after say... a few years of me cultivating my own seed, it will most likely start to take on some different characteristics that make it less Cubanish.
This is why cigar companies that start Cuban seed in Nicaragua and whereever start to see more differences in their tobaccos.

lI have been awed by semois grown in the US, as it really is difficult to tell a difference... if even possible... probably because the curing is so simple also. But, if I cultivated my own seeds here, I might start tasting more differences. How long, I have no idea.
Tobacco is a very fast adapter to its environment, but that doesn’t mean that you’ll get something totally different from just planting the same seed everywhere.

I think cigars are just more susceptible to noticing these slight differences because of the simple curing process and everyone’s notion of the intended flavor profiles.

As said, with pipe tobaccos they spray the shit with so many masks that hardly anyone know what a pure Virginia is going to taste like.
If I told you that SG’s FVF is not an unadulterated tobacco, but C&D (who many think is lower quality) may just be a purer product because they don’t case it as much. Which would start many fights on here.

There's Semois grown in the US? Do you know any blends it's used in?

 

[cosmicfolklore]

There's Semois grown in the US? Do you know any blends it's used in?

No blends use it. I am talking about the homegrown tobacco folks. Get you some seeds, join one of the forums for that, and tag along. There is a lot of interesting stuff being done. A favorite of mine is from another member here, jitterbugdude. He makes a perique from his homegrown semois that is amazing.

I've also got a backyard set up for making fire cures and a flue for curing my own Virginias. It's only as complex as you want to make it. And, a lot of fun.

 

[--dante--]

No blends use it. I am talking about the homegrown tobacco folks. Get you some seeds, join one of the forums for that, and tag along. There is a lot of interesting stuff being done. A favorite of mine is from another member here, jitterbugdude. He makes a perique from his homegrown semois that is amazing.

I've also got a backyard set up for making fire cures and a flue for curing my own Virginias. It's only as complex as you want to make it. And, a lot of fun.

I'm intrigued. I'd want to try the simplest possible burley. I don't have much land here, and I'm not sure what a fire cure entails.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I'm intrigued. I'd want to try the simplest possible burley. I don't have much land here, and I'm not sure what a fire cure entails.

Burley is the easiest. If you just want to play, just plant a few. It will give you an idea. But, then comes the problem we all have at first... which damn seed stock to buy, because there are literally hundreds of them.

 

[--dante--]

Burley is the easiest. If you just want to play, just plant a few. It will give you an idea. But, then comes the problem we all have at first... which damn seed stock to buy, because there are literally hundreds of them.

Is there a forum you recommend, for starting out? I realize we're past growing season at this point I would think.

 

[canucklehead]

I'm intrigued. I'd want to try the simplest possible burley. I don't have much land here, and I'm not sure what a fire cure entails.

You can grow plants in pots if you don't have much room. I grew a few in pots and buckets this year to try different soil mixes. These burleys here were grown in a very undersized pot with straight sand, minimal watering, and no fertilizer. They were a bit lighter in colour but still grew just fine.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Is there a forum you recommend, for starting out? I realize we're past growing season at this point I would think.

Fair Trade seems to have a good one. I'll admit to watching things on a few of them, but I never have felt very confident to start answering questions or asking them even. I think I registered as Cosmicfolklore on a few of them in 2013, but maybe only ever asked a few questions on any of them. By the time I had the phone numbers for some folks in the industry that better answered my questions, I was just off doing my thing.

But, as far as getting started... just sorta check out posts and get an idea of how to start. I will always be glad to assist if you'd prefer to just drop my a PM on here. It's really very easy. I think that starting seeds is different from any other plants I grow, so you have to get started in January to February to have them large enough to even be able to plant by the time frost is gone. Then, curing for burley is very simple. Some even do it in their attic.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

There are some ornamental tobaccos that can be very pretty in the landscape even. Some of the small leaf Orientals I've seen growers work into flower beds aren't too ugly to the eye.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Oh, and try asking tobacco farmers about making a red Virginia. It blew my mind that guys who grow Virginias for a living had no clue what I was talking about. The terms that we've learned on here and everywhere in pipe tobacco marketing doesn't line up at all with anything a tobacco farmer knows, nor even in the processing side. Red Virginias are color cured tobaccos like cigar leaf. That will make more sense to them. Otherwise they will send you on wild goose chases for all sorts of dead ends.

First thing first, drop all notions and terms for what anyone in pipe tobacco knows or calls tobaccos in all of the categories that we've heard of, because it is going to be completely different terms and categories on the farming and processing side. THEY WILL LITERALLY LOOK AT YOU LIKE AN IDIOT for using language pipe tobacco companies list on tins in your vocab.

 

[rajangan]

I disagree with the statement that burley is easiest. I would say it is the simplest.

Re. "Virginia", with a more complicated curing arrangement, you can easily produce flue cured tobacco that is quite excellent. Burley is more difficult to grow, requiring more heat and nutrients, and takes up more square footage and time while curing. Burley needs more aging as well.

Also, I don't like this idea batted around that natural tobacco is unpalatable and must be made so via processing. Try telling a cigar producer that cigars need non tobacco ingredients in them to taste good, lol. Processing is not just about making it taste good, it's about making a commercial blend taste consistent year to year, with different tobaccos every year, via flavourings; retaining moisture levels and retail weight via humectants; and preventing mold via preservatives. Pipe tobacco processing is about making storage idiot proof.

There is amazing whole leaf out there on the market, and with some fiddling, you could easily make blends that are superior to most of the commercial tobaccos you get. Add a few tricks like pressing, fermenting, steaming, toasting, etc, you can make downright amazing stuff. Just don't expect flavored tobacco. That requires the skills of a chemist.

 

[chilllucky]

...Processing is not just about making it taste good, it's about making a commercial blend taste consistent year to year, with different tobaccos every year, via flavourings; retaining moisture levels and retail weight via humectants; and preventing mold via preservatives. Pipe tobacco processing is about making storage idiot proof.
...

I agree with your assessment, but I want to push back just a little on your use of the word "flavorings". I think it could be misleading.

In my researched, but admittedly anecdotal understanding the two most important factors that are used to determine the fitness of a particular batch of leaf to a specific blend recipe are sugar and ph.

All of the things that go into "casing" (as opposed to "topping) tobacco have to do with nudging the sugar or ph level towards the desired levels. Some of those will impart flavor - sugar vs molasses, say. Or, I dunno, vinegar to change the ph. But they aren't "flavorings" in the same way a whisky or chocolate topping would be.

 

[rajangan]

I agree with your assessment, but I want to push back just a little on your use of the word "flavorings". I think it could be misleading.

In my researched, but admittedly anecdotal understanding the two most important factors that are used to determine the fitness of a particular batch of leaf to a specific blend recipe are sugar and ph.

All of the things that go into "casing" (as opposed to "topping) tobacco have to do with nudging the sugar or ph level towards the desired levels. Some of those will impart flavor - sugar vs molasses, say. Or, I dunno, vinegar to change the ph. But they aren't "flavorings" in the same way a whisky or chocolate topping would be.

I'll roll with that.

 

[rajangan]

I agree with your assessment, but I want to push back just a little on your use of the word "flavorings". I think it could be misleading.

In my researched, but admittedly anecdotal understanding the two most important factors that are used to determine the fitness of a particular batch of leaf to a specific blend recipe are sugar and ph.

All of the things that go into "casing" (as opposed to "topping) tobacco have to do with nudging the sugar or ph level towards the desired levels. Some of those will impart flavor - sugar vs molasses, say. Or, I dunno, vinegar to change the ph. But they aren't "flavorings" in the same way a whisky or chocolate topping would be.

AFAIK, acidification is accomplished directly usually with citric acid, or malic acid, or indirectly with dextrose or glucose. Indirectly because when the sugar burns, one of the combustion products is formic acid.