UFOs, the Pentagon, and Tin Foil Hats

[LOREN]

One thing that often puzzles me is that most if not all scientists state that any form of life anywhere in the solar system needs both water and some form of carbon to exist!

How about on some way off distant planet yet to be discovered some form of life has been created and is thriving by some totally different set of scientific rules?

Put that in your pipe and smoke it......goodnight chaps, time for bed ?

Regards,

Jay.Jay

I've thought about that. Seems like a fair question. I don't think scientists have ever addressed that question.

 

[jeff540]

Other intelligent, advanced life in an infinite universe with untold dimensions? Unless you believe the Earth is flat and we're all in God's terrarium then the answer must be a resounding "yes."

As for paranormal and "supernatural" then by my scientific minded definition "no" because all reality is "natural" but there's likely a lot that we can't measure or observe directly.

I'm not sure about the ghost thing - don't think grandma is coming back every night to watch Johnny Carson for all eternity. BUT (and a big but) I have had several experiences to believe in a kind of energization in spaces, that when intensified enough can almost been seen as intelligent and often malevolent. My wife and I experienced this in our own house several years ago, and it got bad enough that we had to get help. That's as far as I'm willing to discuss on a forum.

 

[Country Bladesmith]

One thing that often puzzles me is that most if not all scientists state that any form of life anywhere in the solar system needs both water and some form of carbon to exist!

How about on some way off distant planet yet to be discovered some form of life has been created and is thriving by some totally different set of scientific rules?

Put that in your pipe and smoke it......goodnight chaps, time for bed ?

Regards,

Jay.Jay

One of my upper level electives that I took in college was astrobiology. Your post is actually a topic that comes up often. Basically, the reason they say that carbon and water are necessary is that chemistry is the same wherever you go. We live in a universe of matter, and matter follows a fairly predictable set of physical and chemical rules. There is only one element that can form long complex chains necessary for macromolecules like lipids, proteins, nucleic acids, and carbohydrates, and that is carbon. Silicon is arguably second-best, but it’s not even close. Carbon is unique. Now life without water? Unlikely, but the odds are probably better than a carbonless organism. It might be possible for exotic microbes to use liquid hydrocarbons as a solvent rather than water, using some very different biochemistry.

 

[Akousticplyr]

I have always LOVED this topic. Wonderful brain exercise!
Here's my take (for what it's worth)

1) Is there life in the universe? Based on Drake's Equation, and the fact that there are heaven knows how many planets orbiting 100 billion billion stars in our galaxy with 100 billion billion galaxies in the universe? Probably. I'd put money on it in Vegas.

-Is SOME of it intelligent life? Probably as well.
-Intelligent life capable of interstellar space travel? Sure, why not? I'd say there's gotta be a few civilizations that can/could.

Otherwise it would be as Carl Sagan said, "The Universe is a pretty big place. If it's just us, seems like an awful waste of space."

2) Problem is...people forget just how big the Universe is and the distances between these stars/galaxies. As well as disregarding the power of scientific observation. What do I mean? Ok, here's where the fun starts...

-The only way intelligent life would be here from somewhere else is if they could travel faster than the speed of light. Because the distances between galaxies let alone stars let alone planets are too far for our brains to even start imagining let alone travelling, even if going at the speed of light. Even for ships whose caretakers are one generation after another of families who live and die over hundreds or thousands of years enroute (Like "For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky" to get some Star Trek nerd street cred...) It's just too damn far and would take too long.

-The energy required for approaching let alone going beyond speed of light travel is impossible to attain. It's physically impossible. (Cue the arguments about wormholes or time travel- let's leave those for another Star Trek episode discussion)

Here's why:

• -An object approaches infinite mass as it approaches the speed of light and therefore correspondingly requires infinite energy to "bust the number." Not even a billion billion stars could generate that much energy.
• The nearest potentially habitable planet is 4.2 light years away. So, stuck at the universe's speed limit of travelling at 9.999999999 percent of the speed of light, that's a trip over 4 years. Only light can go as fast as light. Remember, NOTHING can go faster than the speed of light. (BTW it's Proxima Centauri...looks like there's no one home there so a moot argument).
• 
  
• -But WAIT, you say...we just need to figure out HOW to go faster than light. Like said 'wormholes' or something we haven't thought of yet. We did it with powered flight and going supersonic, right??
• 
  
• -Correct, I say. Except that as humans who observe the universe...we could SEE birds and bees flying so we knew it was possible for things to fly. We could HEAR the sonic boom as projectiles left barrels of weapons so we knew it was possible for things to go faster than the speed of sound. We just had to figure out the physics, formulas and mechanics of doing them a la Wright Bros and Chuck Yeager.
• 
  
• -We have never ever ever ever observed any object in the known universe go faster than the speed of light. All of the formulas reinforce this as they hit infinity values that are impossible to achieve (mass/energy even time).
• Therefore, a space ship in this universe has a theoretical top speed of 99.999999999 percent the speed of light. Assuming it can generate the energy to sustain that speed.

3) Whew! So, assuming there's civilized life capable of interstellar space travel, and assuming the speed limit is light speed, the chances of a civilization capable of finding us in our teeny tiny infinitesimally small speck of a speck of a pale blue dot among all of those quadrillions of planets and stars AND getting here without killing themselves from boredom over such LONG times and distances are pretty freaking low.

But theoretically, anything is possible.

*Except finding the perfect aro/english/balkan/lakeland/lakatia/ cased/ribbon/cake/ rubbed/ flake blend that we'd all agree is the best. We'll figure out wormholes before that happens.

As to the Navy Super Hornet vid of UFO's and speaking as a guy who flew fighters, I'm betting it's probably a glitchy sensor/software issue. Occam's razor.

 

[davek]

a peaceful place, or so it looks from space
????

A closer look reveals the human race.

I have always LOVED this topic. Wonderful brain exercise!

I find it interesting as well. Do some reading on time dilation. If constant acceleration were to be achieved, interstellar trips are quite possible in a lifetime but many lifetimes will have passed on earth. You reach relativistic speeds at around one year of 1g acceleration. I knew this, as likely did you, but never realized till lately just how much time would be shortened for the travelers. Never realized that generation ships were not necessary, but that the star troopers would leave the rest of us behind.

"Physicists generally believe faster-than-light travel is impossible. Relativistic time dilation allows a traveler to experience time more slowly, the closer their speed is to the speed of light.[35] This apparent slowing becomes noticeable when velocities above 80% of the speed of light are attained. Clocks aboard an interstellar ship would run slower than Earth clocks, so if a ship's engines were capable of continuously generating around 1 g of acceleration (which is comfortable for humans), the ship could reach almost anywhere in the galaxy and return to Earth within 40 years ship-time (see diagram). Upon return, there would be a difference between the time elapsed on the astronaut's ship and the time elapsed on Earth.

For example, a spaceship could travel to a star 32 light-years away, initially accelerating at a constant 1.03g (i.e. 10.1 m/s2) for 1.32 years (ship time), then stopping its engines and coasting for the next 17.3 years (ship time) at a constant speed, then decelerating again for 1.32 ship-years, and coming to a stop at the destination. After a short visit, the astronaut could return to Earth the same way. After the full round-trip, the clocks on board the ship show that 40 years have passed, but according to those on Earth, the ship comes back 76 years after launch.

From the viewpoint of the astronaut, onboard clocks seem to be running normally. The star ahead seems to be approaching at a speed of 0.87 light years per ship-year. The universe would appear contracted along the direction of travel to half the size it had when the ship was at rest; the distance between that star and the Sun would seem to be 16 light years as measured by the astronaut.

At higher speeds, the time on board will run even slower, so the astronaut could travel to the center of the Milky Way (30,000 light years from Earth) and back in 40 years ship-time. But the speed according to Earth clocks will always be less than 1 light year per Earth year, so, when back home, the astronaut will find that more than 60 thousand years will have passed on Earth."

Interstellar travel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So, 40 years have passed for a round trip to a star 32 light years away, according to that article. That's "faster than light" for the travelers. Other wiki pages show travel to our nearest stars at 3-4 years ship time with constant acceleration.

This is fascinating stuff for making up science fictions stories in your head. Star travelers in one lifetime is possible, but you leave our earth and species behind.

So, aliens thus might be operating under this little loophole as well if you're into all that.

Not sure I believe in aliens myself. My psychic told me that was bunk.

 

[mawnansmiff]

"We live in a universe of matter, and matter follows a fairly predictable set of physical and chemical rules."

And there you have it, you are talking about our universe, there are untold numbers of universes out there and not all will necessarily follow our set of rules.

Just food for thought.

Regards,

Jay.

 

[autumnfog]

Some blurry photos won't change my world view.
I'm not an expert on aerodynamics, technology or astrophysics,
so I know that my layman speculations on these subjects would be very limited.

Life forms on other planets.
Well, I guess I take an agnostic standpoint here.
It might exist or it doesn't.
I sure don't loose any sleep pondering about it.

One thing I do know though is that very many get excited and thrilled about UFOs
and therefore there is a whole industry about it; from movies to t-shirts, "documentaries",
conspiracy theories etcetera.

 

[davek]

 

[Country Bladesmith]

As to the Navy Super Hornet vid of UFO's and speaking as a guy who flew fighters, I'm betting it's probably a glitchy sensor/software issue. Occam's razor.

I would have probably said the same, but I watched the pilot give an interview. Normal, down to earth guy (no pun intended). Pretty sure he said he and his WSO made visual contact. I’d have to go find it again to be sure, but I seem to remember that.

 

[peregrinus]

Multiple target acquisitions over a period of weeks coming from ground and flight based systems along with visual confirmation. Contemporary scientific understanding aside, something may be going on here.

Some context:

U.S. Navy pilot Cmdr. David Fravor’s 2004 encounter with a flying object about the size of his plane moving at a rapid pace, unlike anything else he’d seen in the air. He told The Post’s Eli Rosenberg that he has not forgotten the incident. As Rosenberg reported:

An order came in for [Fravor] to suspend the exercise and do some “real-world tasking,” about 60 miles west of their location, Fravor said. He said he was told by the command that there were some unidentified flying objects descending from 80,000 feet to 20,000 feet and disappearing; he said officials told him they had been tracking a couple dozen of these objects for a few weeks.
When they arrived closer to the point, they saw the object, flying around a patch of white water in the ocean below.
“A white Tic Tac, about the same size as a Hornet, 40 feet long with no wings,” Fravor described. “Just hanging close to the water.”
The object created no rotor wash — the visible air turbulence left by the blades of a helicopter — he said, and began to mirror the pilots as they pursued it, before it vanished.
“As I get closer, as my nose is starting to pull back up, it accelerates and it’s gone,” he said. “Faster than I’d ever seen anything in my life. We turn around, say let’s go see what’s in the water and there’s nothing. Just blue water.”

To this day, 13 years later, Fravor is certain about one thing: That the object is “something not from the Earth,” he said.

 

[LOREN]

One of my upper level electives that I took in college was astrobiology. Your post is actually a topic that comes up often. Basically, the reason they say that carbon and water are necessary is that chemistry is the same wherever you go. We live in a universe of matter, and matter follows a fairly predictable set of physical and chemical rules. There is only one element that can form long complex chains necessary for macromolecules like lipids, proteins, nucleic acids, and carbohydrates, and that is carbon. Silicon is arguably second-best, but it’s not even close. Carbon is unique. Now life without water? Unlikely, but the odds are probably better than a carbonless organism. It might be possible for exotic microbes to use liquid hydrocarbons as a solvent rather than water, using some very different biochemistry.

Very helpful explanation, thank you

 

[Richmond B. Funkenhouser]

If life exist elswhere, and I'd bet it does. I sure hope it never finds me.. My logic tells me they'd squash us like roaches.

 

[Bowie]

If life exist elswhere, and I'd bet it does. I sure hope it never finds me.. My logic tells me they'd squash us like roaches.

Unless the aliens are themselves minsicule. Maybe they have already established an entire world in your backyard.

 

[Richmond B. Funkenhouser]

Unless the aliens are themselves minsicule. Maybe they have already established an entire world in your backyard.

Ants, are amazing and supernatural.

 

[Country Bladesmith]

Unless the aliens are themselves minsicule. Maybe they have already established an entire world in your backyard.

Look up panspermia. Just be careful what you click on ?

 

[davek]

I read somewhere that there was a reason the the govt. called all the UFO's weather balloons at first. In the early days of the cold war, we were desperate for aerial intelligence on Russia. Early spy satellites were an off the shelf camera with film on a reel, picked up at sea manually, etc., etc..

Anyway, one avenue which was used was spy balloons. They also had to be manually retrieved, also had issues and crashed, etc..

So, many sightings were those spy balloons and when they did crash they were whisked away and the govt. was in fact very secretive about them.

That could easily have started the whole UFO thing going. there may have even been "men in black" making sure everything was kept secret and under wraps.

I myself am open to being convinced, but I lean toward a non-alien explanation which does include something we don't know about yet.

Now, alien abduction and lizard people etc.... there's an interesting subject. At most aliens or inter dimensional travelers, but at least begging the question of why so many experiences are identical. The question of concepts and data hard wired into the brain and how elaborate and detailed those archetypes might be is controversial enough.

Ah, to be Jung again.

 

[condorlover1]

Very valid point and if these 'beings' are such advanced species why do they travel so far across a galaxy/solar system just to engage in anal probing? On that basis a reasonable case could be made that the entire of Greenwich Village in New York and the Tenderloin district in S.F are populated by extra terrestrials!!

 

[Country Bladesmith]

Very valid point and if these 'beings' are such advanced species why do they travel so far across a galaxy/solar system just to engage in anal probing? On that basis a reasonable case could be made that the entire of Greenwich Village in New York and the Tenderloin district in S.F are populated by extra terrestrials!!

I don’t put any stock in the “abduction” stories, personally. Those videos confirmed by the Pentagon, especially the Fravor video, are damned difficult to explain though. From what I understand, most of these sightings occur when/where there are military training exercises being conducted. Maybe the military has some sort of new tech that they are “testing?” Holograms of some type that could be projected? I don’t know what to think of it, personally. Those videos are impressive though, especially if you listen to Fravor’s commentary about it.

 

[LOREN]

I guess what I don't understand is, if there is somebody/something with technology so ahead of ours, and they're around, why would "they" worry about being secretive?

 

[mso489]

Yeah, I think Disneyland, being the first Disney theme park, is one of the smaller versions. When the company planned Disney World in Orlando, they did it on a much larger scale to accommodate all of the lodgings and associated amenities so others couldn't grab the business. Still, separate from Disney I think, Orlando has a gargantuan convention facility that houses many major national meetings at once. It is something to behold, like eight convention centers in one. I think Orlando competes with O'Hare in inducing out of body experiences. See, they both begin with an "O." Coincidence? I don't think so. Pass the PB&J sandwiches please.