Thought I Was Smooth

[cshubhra]

You have no way of knowing that. The buyer may not have lived within 100 miles of a retailer who had Stonehaven to sell. The buyer may have been an attorney who billed $500'per hour for his time. It would have cost him more to spend 45 minutes calling retailers than it would to spend the $300 without any guarantee 45 minutes would yield a single bag much less 5.

You're looking at it solely from your perspective. Somewhere, there's a guy who is ecstatic about finding 5 bags of Stonehaven which will provide him 400 hours of enjoyment for the paltry sum of $1,500. There's probably 500 guys in Vegas who spent that tonight for a couple of hours with a high end hooker. Are those hookers gouging too? It's not going, is called a free market.

Also I must point out that hiring hookers is immoral and for most
jurisdictions is illegal. If immoral and illegal is your moral compass then there is no debate. You do what you do.

 

[niblicck]

You misunderstand free market my friend. Do you have a license to sell tobacco? Are you verifying the age of the person you are selling to? Do you pay taxes on you sale? Do you pay taxes on your trade?

Maybe. No. No. No. and No.
I just see two people helping each other out. One person has too much tobacco for whatever their reason is that has reached a ripe old age of 5 years. Another person wanting said 5 year old tobacco at a price that they feel is justifiable for them. Not you.

 

[cshubhra]

I just see two people helping each other out. One person has too much tobacco for whatever their reason is that has reached a ripe old age of 5 years. Another person wanting said 5 year old tobacco at a price that they feel is justifiable for them. Not you.

This is not the case of gouging. This does not cause artificial scarcity. This behavior is case 2 I mentioned many posts ago

 

[lukasstrifeson]

LOL - was going to comment on the original topic, but man this thread got out of control quick.

1) 8oz bags for $300 a pop is a complete madness - but some impatient, instant-gratification idiot wants to pay so be it

2) the seller is present a "value added" by making out-of-stock product available to the public for purchase, I think the moral reluctance some people are having with this is that this "value" seems artificially created by malicious sellers

3) cshubby - you're moral grand standing is hilarious for its hypocrisy.

I could do a lot of things. Whether I do it depends on my moral compass, my law abiding compass, my social compass, my sense of righteousness compass.
All of these varies from person to person.

You are correct ... and incorrect at the same time.

Let’s do a thought experiment...

1. Pipestud has a rare Barling for sale
2. Sablebrush52 wants it
3. You want it
4. Hoosier want it

You all get into an auction and the highest bidder wins it. That is a perfect example of the buyer determining the price

Another example ... cosmic has aged his Virginias in his cellar for many years. He wants to sell it at a premium because of the effort and time. Mso thinks it is worth and buys it. Another good behavior.

Now think ... SmokingPipes has 5000 Peterson pipes for sale, at an average price of 100$. Brobs writes a bot to scrape SmokingPipes site and buy all of them. Then he sells at 500$ a piece. There was no scarcity in Peterson pipes at all - That is price gouging. Morally unjustifiable.

Finally let’s say, a robber raids the SmokingPipes warehouse and steals all 500 Peterson pipes, and sells them at 50$ each. That is also morally unjustifiable.

Dude's not even in the thread to defend himself. ?

 

[cshubhra]

Dude's not even in the thread to defend himself. ?

That was just to add some fun to this debate. @BROBS is very generous and shared his stuff freely with a lot of members. I took him as an example as he is not a gouger

 

[cshubhra]

Before I sign of from this thread - Why I took stand here

• Tobacco is least of my worry - Don’t equate this to the other thread
• I despise the practice of price gouging- and I believe it starts as from discretionary goods and quickly snowballs to the essentials. Attitude is wrong
• You are all aware of price gouging of essential items last year in USA - Toilet Paper, OTC medicines and a lot of other stuff. The behavior was atrocious
• Meanwhile if you read the papers - Right now in another country people are price gouged out of life saving medicines and treatment. If you are middle class, often you are left to die because the medicines and healthcare are no longer affordable. If you are affluent, you will at least have the care, but you will see years of savings going away to the gougers. Don’t ask me how I know
• It all starts with tobacco, video games but as we cheer it as “Entrepreneurial Spirit” it quickly moves to essential goods
• Lastly Entrepreneur and Hustler are two different things

 

[Sweet Home Alabama]

In the US a pipe line has been off line due to a ransomware hack. While there was never a shortage of fuel, out of fear, consumers caused a shortage by hoarding. Local stations increased the price per gallon from 10 cents to near 50 cents.

Some might see this just a capitalism at work, supply and demand economics, but I think something larger is on display. How can I be in a good situation if my actions cause others not to be in a good situation. Can I justify this smuggly as entrepreneurship? Can I feel good that I am a savvy?

True, the consumer can determine if there are other options, but what about when there are no options?

What would we hope others would do when we are in need? How we answer will be how we should live.

 

[sandollars]

The buyer may have been an attorney who billed $500'per hour for his time.

$500 per hour???? I could find a lawyer for 1/5th that!

That Lawyer is PRICE GOUGING! LOL!

It's all in good fun....

 

[cshubhra]

$500 per hour???? I could find a lawyer for 1/5th that!

That Lawyer is PRICE GOUGING! LOL!

It's all in good fun....

This belongs to the thread “Is a price of a premium pipe worth it” ?

 

[DangerStranger]

$1500 for 5 bags of Stonehaven is cheap if you live in China.

 

[craig61a]

It's called Free Market Economy... No one is holding a gun to somebody else's head and forcing them to pay $300/8 oz. of Esoterica.

 

[sandollars]

Money was not the point. Point was to oust the vultures from the market

In the spirit of good healthy discussion:

Isn't the guy that sent out the Concierge to buy up all the Stonehaven he could find, in fact, a Vulture by your very definition? He is still contributing to the problem you claim is the root of me not being able to buy Stonehaven at retail, is he not? Oh, and he's wasting gas and polluting the planet for your Stonehaven..

While I would never pay 300 bucks for Stonehaven or any other tobacco, I do not look down on those that could/would. And I, for sure, don't lump those that have Stonehaven available to sell at those ridiculous prices in with thieves. 2 completely different scenarios. I am unaware of anyone selling stolen goods on this forum. Sellers and buyers of stolen goods is a completely different discussion and am confused that they seem interchangeable to you.

This very thread might be considered bullying and is accomplishing, to a degree, your goal of mitigating gouging by making someone think twice about posting an item they have for sale at a huge markup for fear of this type of ridicule. Consider this though. By ridiculing a seller selling an item because you believe the price is too high, you might be depriving someone the opportunity to try out an Unobtainium tobacco because it may never get listed for sale.

I have a better idea: JUST ROLL YOUR EYES, SHOUT "STUPID IDIOT. I WON'T PAY YOUR PRICES!" at your computer monitor and flip the page.

Supply and demand is the motivating factor and determines pricing in a free market society. I hold an MBA from Stanford and in my years there, never did I hear "Oh, I am not going to charge so much because it would be immoral." it was always "How much can we charge and still have healthy market demand?" In this case the seller has placed a higher value than you are willing to pay, but obviously someone had a different opinion and paid the price.

Free Enterprise, Baby.

The only way to lower prices is to lower demand so if it's important to you to place blame on someone, blame the Buyer who paid the crazy price.

I didn't proof read this and I haven't made coffee yet so if it's full of grammar errors consider the aforementioned circumstances please.

 

[sandollars]

$1500 for 5 bags of Stonehaven is cheap if you live in China.

Let's blame the CHINESE!!!!! ?‍

 

[DangerStranger]

Let's blame the CHINESE!!!!! ?‍

Haha. Not blaming at all.

The demand for goods perceived as luxuries in China is shocking. Combine that with the status such items bring one and the Chinese gift giving culture - it's easy to see why Stonehaven sells there for RMB6500 per 8 oz bag.

 

[Aomalley27]

In the spirit of good healthy discussion:

Isn't the guy that sent out the Concierge to buy up all the Stonehaven he could find, in fact, a Vulture by your very definition? He is still contributing to the problem you claim is the root of me not being able to buy Stonehaven at retail, is he not? Oh, and he's wasting gas and polluting the planet for your Stonehaven..

While I would never pay 300 bucks for Stonehaven or any other tobacco, I do not look down on those that could/would. And I, for sure, don't lump those that have Stonehaven available to sell at those ridiculous prices in with thieves. 2 completely different scenarios. I am unaware of anyone selling stolen goods on this forum. Sellers and buyers of stolen goods is a completely different discussion and am confused that they seem interchangeable to you.

This very thread might be considered bullying and is accomplishing, to a degree, your goal of mitigating gouging by making someone think twice about posting an item they have for sale at a huge markup for fear of this type of ridicule. Consider this though. By ridiculing a seller selling an item because you believe the price is too high, you might be depriving someone the opportunity to try out an Unobtainium tobacco because it may never get listed for sale.

I have a better idea: JUST ROLL YOUR EYES, SHOUT "STUPID IDIOT. I WON'T PAY YOUR PRICES!" at your computer monitor and flip the page.

Supply and demand is the motivating factor and determines pricing in a free market society. I hold an MBA from Stanford and in my years there, never did I hear "Oh, I am not going to charge so much because it would be immoral." it was always "How much can we charge and still have healthy market demand?" In this case the seller has placed a higher value than you are willing to pay, but obviously someone had a different opinion and paid the price.

Free Enterprise, Baby.

The only way to lower prices is to lower demand so if it's important to you to place blame on someone, blame the Buyer who paid the crazy price.

I didn't proof read this and I haven't made coffee yet so if it's full of grammar errors consider the aforementioned circumstances please.

Yeah, I don’t understand the logic of “hoarders bad” thus Ill pay someone to hoard for me?

 

[cshubhra]

@sandollars
1. A concierge is providing a service only to the person who has hired him, and therefore entitled to a premium. This does not further escalate the scarcity in the market, which is artificial
2. I would agree that this would seem like bullying to some - The intention was not to bully but have an opinion and a discussion
3. I explained earlier many times - Price gouging (to me) is a moral slippery slope and I personally equate it to thieves. Remember last years TP price gouging
4. Every responsible enterprise has ethics and compliance department to ensure the business plays by the rule of moral compass. You know that ?

 

[craig61a]

Seller was providing a service... How you might ask? He made available a commodity that is not often easy to obtain through online sales.

Sure, you could scour the B&M stores, either calling or driving to them and asking if the have it for sale. That involves time. And time is money. Or hire somebody to do it for you. They aren't going to spend their time doing that without proper compensation. How much is your time worth to you?

Time - that is the key consideration here.

Is it less morally objectionable to hire somebody to search out something at a lower sticker price...?

Are same day air deliveries gouging people because they charge a vastly higher rate to get you something in several hours that would otherwise take a week?

If I have something and you don't, I set the price. You can either pay the price, try to negotiate, or step off. Is it morally objectionable that I set the price for what I have. Hardly. This occurs every day for 1000's of transactions. Sporting events, rock concerts, you name it...

 

[depriest1022]

Ok. I will be serious now. Price gouging for essentials in an emergency is not immoral. It is the market acting for the good of the entire community. Say, for instance, that a hurricane has just taken out the electricity in our an area, so now everyone needs batteries and bottled water. At the everyday price, there are people that will walk into a store and buy it out of those items “just in case” leaving nothing for the next guy. If he has to pay 5x for those items, he might buy only what he really needs leaving stuff for the next guy. This provides TIME on the shelf for those items to be replaced as help is on the way. It also allows more people to get access to needed items.

This soapbox on gouging doesn’t account for real market factors and real life. If you are in that situation, having access to the goods is infinitely better than paying the normal price for them.

 

[craig61a]

Ethic and compliance deals with employee misconduct... A willful violation of established norms and guidelines.

Setting a price for something and having somebody come along and pay that price isn't gouging. They have the option not to pay that price. And if the item doesn't sell, the seller has the option to withdraw the item, or offer it at a lower price.

 

[craig61a]

Ok. I will be serious now. Price gouging for essentials in an emergency is not immoral. It is the market acting for the good of the entire community. Say, for instance, that a hurricane has just taken out the electricity in our an area, so now everyone needs batteries and bottled water. At the everyday price, there are people that will walk into a store and buy it out of those items “just in case” leaving nothing for the next guy. If he has to pay 5x for those items, he might buy only what he really needs leaving stuff for the next guy. This provides TIME on the shelf for those items to be replaced as help is on the way. It also allows more people to get access to needed items.

This soapbox on gouging doesn’t account for real market factors and real life. If you are in that situation, having access to the goods is infinitely better than paying the normal price for them.

I don't necessarily agree with that scenario. If it were an essential item, the seller could implement limits.