The "Tobacco Snobs" Thread That Got Closed

[sablebrush52]

Boy do I miss the exchanges that used to happen between Peck and Harris. They were rude, crude, witty, and hilarious.
Perhaps some of us could have been a bit more patient with the OP. But make no mistake, the language of that opening post was filled with judgements, and people don't react well to a screed. When one wants a conversation, one invites responses. This opening was written as a declaration with behavioral instructions, not as an invitation to discussion, which is the main function of a forum.
My suggestion is that we leave the hair shirts in the box. There are insights to be got in all directions.

 

[tbradsim1]

I'll take the Slings and Arrows about me not being a touchy feely kind of guy, but to PM someone and harangue them is so wrong. I never thought someone would do that.

 

[aldecaker]

I still wish George would explain what "this" is. I'd really like to know, so that if I'm guilty of doing "this", I could watch myself in the future and perhaps stop doing "that".

 

[davet]

Sable, your response to that post was spot on though. :clap:
Tbrad, I agree and it's happened before. I just don't get it.

 

[georged]

I still wish George would explain what "this" is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wVuRdfDHbE

 

[pipestud]

I have a different take on things. I'm a moderator as well and also owner of other discussion groups just as Kevin is here. I agree, the thread wasn't "going" anywhere, but only because someone who came on here and right off the bat started right in telling us our "problems" got a lot of very tolerant, helpful, but clearly increasingly unappreciative feedback for the longest time but was still unable or unwilling to read the tea leaves.
Is that really the way you say "Hello" to strangers when you join their group? "Boy are you guys screwed up! BTW, my name's Bob and I'm here to tell you to straighten out."
But that was not enough. He just did not get it. And 74 posts later, he was still at it! Pushing people's buttons that obviously were not digging it. The time to act was then and with the person doing the offending. In the time I've been on here I have seen others start off on the wrong foot for whatever reason and get it right away when people told them so and apologized. And things were happy since. Just as with when Jay was going on about the cellaring. I did not consider that thread a waste of time nor do I hold any issues with his opinions. But not this guy, after 74 posts, he was still going at it straight on and had only shifted into second gear.
Bunched up panties, this and that. I think the people here should be commended for putting up with the nonsense for 74 posts. I made the quite valid statement to him that if you talked to some people face to face like that on the street that way, a lot of people would get pretty upset with you! Just as I know a lot of people were getting highly offended and miffed here!
Talking that way to the wrong person on the street might get you punched in the nose. I had to look up what a jap slap was. OK, whatever. Just words. It isn't like Brad was actually threatening the guy, but making the same point! When someone gets 70 sarcastic or inflammatory rebuttals telling you they don't appreciate your attitude, statements, or what-have-you, and you still don't get it, THAT is the problem. No one is being intolerant here. Stopping a thread may curb the symptom, but IMO it was the wrong thing to do because it does not address the real problem from the source.
All it does is inhibit free expression that takes from the fun and reason half the people log on here. No one was attacking the guy, he came here attacking the forum looking for an argument. He even called the thread "Tobacco Snobs." I have not seen any snobs here---- not one. It did not make us look bad, it made him look bad. Excusing every bad behavior of new members and clamping down on the 99 others he is offending will not solve any problem other than to encourage more such rude threads in the future because they will be "tolerated," and that is exactly what the premise of the thread was-- downright rude. Considering that, I think the responses were pretty fair. Any time you have someone join a group and start right off telling them they are snobs, elitists and a whole lot of other things, you are bound to have a problem. One of the first things I tried to tell the guy was that this group is not going to change to suit him.
But maybe I was wrong. All that was accomplished here was to harm the friendliness and camaraderie that makes this group so much fun, because now, everyone will be just a little more afraid of kidding with someone else and pulling their chain in good-natured fun because they will be afraid of it being taken wrongly, being accused of something they did not intend, being censured or having another thread jerked closed. Now, you all might not agree, but thanks at least for considering it.
You have to be pretty comfortable with people to kid around with them, jerk their chains, etc., it really is a form of friendliness because it is well-intended. The author of the snob thread did not come across as well-meaning. And IMO, closing the thread in knee-jerk fashion and making this one just made everyone a lot less comfortable here. Everyone except the one person really causing the problem.- toobfreak

(Insert big yawn here) ZZZZzzzzzzz..... :wink:

 

[aldecaker]

Well, that certainly clears it up.

 

[pipehunter]

Hahaha!

 

[ignaciojn]

I'm new to this forum, but I've been a Moderator in an Android forum.
Just a couple of things to say.
1. Language plays a major role. English not being the native language of many users (myself included), sometimes things are lost or misinterpreted in translation.
2. Intention. Some people come to a forum looking for help, or advice. Others just enjoy the banter. Some are kind enough to share their wonderful and vast experience. You need to really be a part of the community to understand the inner workings.
3. My personal experience. I've learned a lot from this site, and always got very helpful advice and a few laughs.
Just my two cents.

 

[jabo]

Nuf said ! I back Kevin, Cosmic or any other moderator. We kid each other here and joke around a lot. No offenses should be taken. We are all individuals and thus have different tastes. That should be respected. Oh by the way,I kinda like aromatics occasionally. Thanks for the aromatics tonight Cosmic ! ;-)

 

[sdcowboy]

As someone who does not post regularly but reads this forum nearly every day I can perhaps offer a point of view that some here might understand. This is a tough crowd. It can be intimidating similarly to the first visit to a new B&M where there are a group of “regulars” that aren’t always easy to approach.
While I agree that the title of the thread wasn’t the best choice, I think much of what he posted in the OP had some merit. Instead of discussing the issues that he brought up it appears that some here have decided to discredit the author. As a long time member and reader of this forum, I understand the point he was trying to make.
The question is…do we want this forum to be a welcoming and forgiving place to discuss and share ideas? Have we forgotten what it is like to be the new guy and make a mistake? A lot is posted here about how kind-hearted and easy-going pipe smokers are? Is that just talk? Is this the best we can do?
I agree with snowyowl. “Just kidding” doesn’t cut it after the damage is done. I also agree with davet that I didn’t see any “trolling” in the OP, however the title of the thread could have been thought out a little better.
I’ve been on this forum for around 6 years, but I don’t have much more than 100 posts. Perhaps some will feel that this isn’t enough activity to write what I’ve written. I don’t think there are a minimum number of posts to be able to see unfriendly and unwelcoming activity. In reading this thread and the “Snob” thread, it doesn’t appear to me that we have collectively put our best foot forward.

 

[toobfreak]

Hello guys, look, I see the topic is still raging on. Some of it has been directed to me. Some people are claiming the thread is the reason why pipe forums are dying but I don't really think so. 99.99% of the time, this place runs smooth as butter. But I do think there is a very important matter at stake here that should not be missed.
Forgive me, I am not well and am going through my own personal travails. I have never been on a pipe forum before this. I was not here 7-8 years ago and cannot say how things were like then, but what I've seen here in the months I lurked and the months since I've joined, I will say this: I don't see any problems with this forum other than the one we are maybe creating for ourselves!
I can't read or respond to everything said here, but to a few specific points:
* Kudos to everyone here. I haven't any other pipe forum to compare it to, I am not a big social media participator, but I've found this to be just a great place to belong! There are obviously lots of real good friends here and in general, great camaraderie and friendship between many of the people. Be careful not to ever damage that. IMO, three of the biggest assets here are members Duane (ChasingEmbers), Cosmic (Michael), and MSO489 (If I got that right). I could list 20 others right behind them. Cherish this place.
* Don't look to fix the wheel that ain't broken. But it doesn't hurt to do a little introspection once in a while.
* Nate was right: coming onto a group, it is your job to be be vetted first and let people get to know you. Then climb up their ass (as it were) and tell them what is wrong with them. :mrgreen: Not that I am intending that here. Don't join a forum as the OP did and start right off trying to change the world as the OP did. That is plain bull. That should be common sense to most people but the guy was told that 50 times. Still did not matter. I see the guy has left--- really, all for the better. You can't please everyone, but not only to I disagree that this forum has an issue, I disagree with how the OP went about starting his whole thread. Better to lose one guy than to piss off or lose 50 others. IMO, the guy was just a bad egg destined to cause problems with the way he went about talking to others.
* If pipe forums are dying, it isn't because of one occasional rogue thread IMO, where one person starts a fracas. It is because tobacco in general is being attacked on all sides. Is this place dying? I don't think so, every which way I turn I see brand new members! That 9 out of 10 of them turn out good, contributing members is a success story. But don't fret that you cannot please everybody.
* I apologize for my long posts here. Take my opinions for what they're worth. I'm only saying it because I care for this place and have been asked. I have belonged to other forums that were similar to this (owned by a business interest tied to the market at hand) and with similar problems, and I've seen them damaged/destroyed by over-reaction, over-moderation and too much political correctness in trying to keep an even keel!
* To Kevin: Hi Kevin, I'm a happy customer of yours, a retired CEO, and yes owner of and/or moderator of some other forums (2), but they are private and professional, not public as this is. But I have never needed to close a thread since 2008 and have only booted one person off after giving them the chance to reconsider. This is a public forum, and you have a business interest at stake. What would I have done? The best moderation IMO is the moderation that you do not even notice. A gentle nudge here, a kind suggestion there. It works with reasonable, intelligent people. IMO, closing a thread should not be done without warning first that it is imminent, and only as a last resort. To be honest, I don't read rules because I feel my reasonable behavior should never be a problem! But you can bog down a group with too many rules and regulations. Sometimes it is better just to make it short, sweet and general. Play nice, have fun and be reasonable. I think 99% of the people here do that 99% of the time.
It is your show here. The mods know the game. It's not my place to tell you or anyone how to do anything. But if left up to me, I would approach a thread of concern first openly giving a friendly warning. Second, PM an individual if they still did not get the message. Third, either moderate them (block their posting for a time if that is possible here) or THEN close the thread. Just slamming the door w/o warning sends a very bad message.
We are adults here and people need to both act as reasonable adults here and deserve treatment in kind. But if a member cannot meet that very simple need, then maybe they need to move on. Come back some other time once they have sorted out their problem.
You don't join a fishing group then proceed to tell everyone that they do too much fishing. When people join a forum, it is THEIR job to fit in, not the other way around.
But then, I don't know the realities of the staff's time here to deal with all the threads! I try to follow a lot of them but you cannot follow it all. In the end, you guys have to do as you see best.
I'm sorry the guy left. But IMO, he totally forced the issue. His leaving was crocodile tears. josephcross said it best when he said trolling 101. The snob thread was actually pretty good! It was hilarious and funny. But behind it all was a subtle message to the OP: if everyone is marching to a different step, maybe it is YOU who needs to get in line! IMO this place does not need to change a damn thing. Just maybe a little more proactive in gentle reminders and a little less eager in solving everything with a closed thread. This is a GREAT GROUP. I see no problems here than the ones we create for ourselves. If it were up to me, I would simply end this thread, forget about it and move on as I will try to do, back to the way things were before.
WHAT A GREAT PLACE that we can talk about the fine details of a $2000 pipe, world events, and even personal problems of our lives all in one breath. Kevin, you should be charging $250 membership fees because this place is therapy for us all! One very disruptive person can be dealt with far better than to tie all of us up with all of this soul-searching, especially when the real problem here isn't the attitudes of existing members, it is the boldness of that one rare person who joins a forum only to proceed in immediately criticizing it before he has been here long enough to even get to know anybody. Maybe in time he will reconsider his methods and come back to us.
This is a great place. Don't ever change or lose it.
Thanks for reading.

 

[mindglue]

I don't post at all, and totally unknown person for everyone on this forum, but I read this forum daily for 2 years and enjoy it immensely. I can say only, it was absolutely irresistible urge to respond after reading such unfair and unreasonable statement. I didn't find this starting message to be constructive, and I didn't see it as intent to have a productive discussion about roots of forever existing human quality such as "snobbism/superiority"... Glad that its over, and regular forum life continues.

 

[pipeman7]

I bet that there is someone out there that says they hate pizza.

Pizza tastes like armpit smell..and it looks so nasty where the cheese used to be after it inevitably falls off

 

[jvnshr]

I just hope I am not late to the party

 

[jvnshr]

Boy do I miss the exchanges that used to happen between Peck and Harris. They were rude, crude, witty, and hilarious.

Me too

I'll take the Slings and Arrows about me not being a touchy feely kind of guy, but to PM someone and harangue them is so wrong. I never thought someone would do that.

I am 95% sure that nobody did that. Otherwise he would have exposed him/her/them.

 

[sablebrush52]

Sable, your response to that post was spot on though. :clap:

Well, I thought that the subject merited a reasoned response.
People make all sorts of assumptions and not all assumptions are correct. One to consider is the idea that a particular company uses only its own tobacco stock. Blends can be, and sometimes are, made from tobaccos purchased from a number of sources. A blender is going to use what works for his blend. And I'm not referring only to boutique blenders or shop blends, but major labels.
So when an "expert" makes an ad hominem condemnation of all blending tobaccos that come from a supplier, as in, "Company X offers only inferior leaf", a claim that has occasionally been made here, it's not something to be taken seriously and is an indicator of ignorance. That "inferior leaf" is in a lot of very popular and highly regarded blends under different labels.
But for the most part, people here simply share their enjoyment of the pleasures of a good smoke. The "snob" element is pretty minuscule.

 

[aimlesswanderer]

I may be guilty internally of a little reverse snobbery. I do have a kind of pride that I can enjoy the pipe so humbly, without "needing" expensive pipes or chasing grail blends. I find it liberating be be this easily satisfied when others spend so much in search of pleasure. I do however try to share my feelings and enjoyment in the aforementioned simplicity without being derogatory of other's more expensive tastes.
Just because I'm doing it right, doesn't mean that others are doing it wrong.
Maybe one day I'll yearn a more expensive pipe, maybe get over my aversion to estate pipes, or even maybe get more adventurous with my tobacco purchases. Till then, a few cheap pipes, a few locally available blends, and a budget of about £20 a month keeps me happy.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

If you are enjoying it, you're doing it right.

 

[davet]

Maybe one day I'll yearn a more expensive pipe, maybe get over my aversion to estate pipes, or even maybe get more adventurous with my tobacco purchases.

That's how it starts :rofl: For years I just wandered along pipe smoking blissfully unaware of all things pipe and tobacco. Just smoked my OTC's not knowing the there were different families of tobacco, just Amphora, Sail and Captain Black etc. My first experience with an English was an eye opener, and then I stumbled upon this forum. Well it all changed after that, a couple dozen blends cellared, dozens of pipes, estates included :crazy: This is what's in store if your not careful. :mrgreen: