Not sure which forum this belongs in-- Kirsten may be forced out of business

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jonasclark

Part of the Furniture Now
Aug 4, 2013
738
384
Seattle
I'm posting solely as a fan of F. K. Kirsten. I'm a pipe collector first, smoker second, but Kirstens are my favorite pipes to smoke. I live in the Seattle area, and I occasionally visit the shop and talk to Stacy Thrasher. I know that she has spent a lot of time, money and effort getting the Kirsten pipes back into production (termed by Kirsten fans "Generation 4" pipes). I have the impression that quite a few smokers and collectors are glad for that.
Stacy has told me quite a lot about the various hurdles pipe & tobacco shops must hop over in order to stay in business. In her case, another person who 'restores' old metal pipes (Kirstens and others) has invented and patented an add-on device. He also takes bowls from other vintage system pipes and modify them to fit a Kirsten, as well as making his own version of Kirsten's pedestal valve and their own stems. He also provides bowls made new for Kirstens by another pipemaker. She said she was getting a barrage of phone calls from buyers, who were incensed that "her" products were faulty-- bowls don't fit, the add-on damaged threads on the radiator, etc. Most, she said, ended with the complainer simply hanging up, leaving her unable to explain. I told her I would speak to said person. I contacted him through Facebook; his response was glowing praise for Kirsten as a pipe and as a company, and for Stacy, said he was getting no complaints, and that if she was, she could 'just' explain things to the complainers. I suggested that he contact her to discuss the issues (he did not).
On a following visit, she explained related troubles in more detail: The 'radiator' stems, which are machined in a rather complicated process, cost so much to make that she's slightly losing money on them. She makes her living on sales of the relatively easy-to-produce valves, stems and bowls. In the past year, sales of all but the straight Kirstens has slumped, so much so that her latest run of full-bent "Designer" models is barely going at all. This other maker takes a straight Kirsten, plus his add-on and his pedestal valve, and makes a pipe one can smoke "two ways!" as a straight or as a full-bent (sometimes also with their own churchwarden stem). People are telling her they won't buy a Designer because his are cheaper, and they just buy a straight radiator from her and get everything else from him.
I contacted this maker again, and explained firmly, without nastiness, that because of him, and almost solely so, she may have to go out-of-business within the year. He never responded. I know that this is "just business," but it's also a side business to his main one, a hobby if you will, and it's about to kill the company on which his patented device is based-- and he seems to think none of this is his bother whatsoever?
I'm trying to step in on this because I care and because she can't. She definitely doesn't have the time, money or stress level to go a legal/court route, nor does she know if she has a leg to stand on, so to speak, and thinks he may be forced against her will to simply shrug, sigh and give up. Does anyone here have advice, opinions, etc. on this matter?

 

woodsroad

Lifer
Oct 10, 2013
11,592
15,324
SE PA USA
Jonas, Stacy is a very capable person. She's a fighter who doesn't take "no" for an answer easily. IMHO, this is her battle to fight.

 

eggrollpiper

Can't Leave
Jul 27, 2018
378
38
I think woodsroad is right. I appreciate you bringing this to the light though. I'm thankful I never bought any of that after market crap, I considered it but it just didn't seem right. Plus I'm not a fan of after market parts really. I appreciate my kirstin and the company. Really it's a miracle their still around. It's the best metal pipe I've ever smoked though so I guess that accounts for some longevity. Lastly I'd say if you don't have at least one grab one now, mb it will make a difference and if not then it would be good you got one while you could get it from the source.. just as no collection is complete without a falcon and calabash, same goes for Kirsten

 

jonasclark

Part of the Furniture Now
Aug 4, 2013
738
384
Seattle
Update: I'm now trying to directly be the go-between having spoken with him on the phone. Thanks for the thoughts on this.

 

thehappypiper

Can't Leave
Feb 27, 2014
303
0
Jonas, it seems clear that this "customiser" is both wrong and shameless. Legal proceedings should commence. If I had set-up online international payments right now, I would start a fund to help Kirsten, or a massive group buy.

 

jonasclark

Part of the Furniture Now
Aug 4, 2013
738
384
Seattle
The Kirsten patents have unfortunately expired, and he does have a patent on his add-on device. My goal after speaking with him is trying to get them connected and figure out something that will work for both of them. Thehappypiper, nonetheless, I'm sure she would be glad to have more orders.

 

pappymac

Lifer
Feb 26, 2015
3,273
4,269
Woodsroad - I think it may be a problem depending on how he is marketing his add-ons. For example, if he is taking Kirsten pipes, replacing parts with his add-ons and then selling them as Kirsten pipes, he MAY be guilty of trademark violations and misrepresenting the pipes he is selling as being Kirsten when they have been modified into something else.
While it doesn't seem, according to the original post, that Kirsten has the money to pursue legal action, she should at least sit down with her lawyer and discuss options. If the lawyer thinks there is any grounds for action, they could send a cease and desist letter with a threat of lawsuit.
At the least, the guy should be paying a small licensing fee to Kirsten.
That's just my opinion. I am not a lawyer but I did stay in a Holiday Inn once. :D

 

woodsroad

Lifer
Oct 10, 2013
11,592
15,324
SE PA USA
Pappy, I didn't realize that he is remarketing the Kirsten pipes. That could be a problem. Or it may not, depending on whether or not she has a trademark, how vigorously she has protected the mark in the past and the verbiage that he uses in selling the pipes/accessories. Where is he buying the pipes that he can afford to resell them at an attractive price?
I agree that she needs to seek counsel and deal with problem directly.

 
they could send a cease and desist letter with a threat of lawsuit.

It seems that we've seen Stacy's cards in this hand. If we are getting reports that she is almost bankrupt, I think that any threat of lawsuit would just be tossed into the garbage. I wouldn't feel threatened by someone who is complaining of going broke. Even a dregs of the barrel lawyer can keep extending lawsuits and costing the other party more and more money. Now, if Savinelli sent someone a letter, they should be very afraid, very afraid.
It looks like an unfortunate situation.

 

jonasclark

Part of the Furniture Now
Aug 4, 2013
738
384
Seattle
Stacy is not going bankrupt. Sales have started slacking a bit, but her biggest issue is being inundated with complaint calls. The other person has now (even before we spoke by phone) placed a more direct disclaimer on his auctions stating that, if it wasn't already clear, some parts are not Kirsten-made, and questions or problems must be directed to him through his eBay account.
My continuing goal will be to reconnect these people-- who, it seems, used to talk-- smooth things over, and try to help them find a position where they both get what they want and need.

 

warren

Lifer
Sep 13, 2013
11,700
16,209
Foothills of the Chugach Range, AK
Only knowing the information as provided above, it sounds as though it is time to cut losses and run. Was there due diligence prior to the start of her effort to resurrect the brand? Or, was it purely based on emotion and a "sense" that such a move would/could be successful? Were there sufficient reserves to ride out the "unknown" such as the "hobbyist making the add-ons? The unforeseen will often trip up a small, inadequately funded entrepreneur.
The 'radiator' stems, which are machined in a rather complicated process, cost so much to make that she's slightly losing money on them.
The above is a recipe for disaster if the funding isn't available to sustain the company until a profitable level of sales is reached. How many units must be sold to reach profitability? Is the market sufficient to reach profitability? Purchase/lease the competitor's patent? Take the competitor in as a partner?
that quite a few smokers and collectors are glad for that.
A fan base does not necessarily translate into sales/profitability. She could solicit the fans, ala "GoFundMe."
Reads as though it's time for a substantial infusion of moneys or close the doors. Or, at least a harsh review of her business model prior to further investment of either time or money.

 

crashthegrey

Lifer
Dec 18, 2015
3,812
3,591
41
Cobleskill, NY
www.greywoodie.com
She really should contact a firm well versed in both TM and patents. Good firms will not look to cost her money, but will try to work with both sides to an agreeable outcome. If she has any interest in contacting the firm with which I work, I will see if anyone else has the expertise to assist her or at least give a first free consultation. I personally focus on patent and procuring them, but she may have some further avenues to consider and I work with some great people. Feel free to DM me or contact HRFM and ask for Nathan Davis.

 

jonasclark

Part of the Furniture Now
Aug 4, 2013
738
384
Seattle
I'm hoping most of this will be able to be settled via conversation and some telephone calls. The other pipemaker says he doesn't want to damage Kirsten business, nor cause it to come to an end, and says he'd like to find a mutual resolution.

 

metalman

Lurker
Mar 11, 2016
13
3
There are two sides to every story.

To begin with, I have smoked Kirstens exclusively since 1983 when I bought one from Stacy’s father at Fisherman’s Terminal in Seattle. I presently own over 30, all quarter bent or full bent pipes all of which are second and third generation Kirstens, all have factory issued parts with two exceptions. One is a 3/8 inch bore black pedestal never produced by Kirsten. Second are bowls I have acquired from secondary bowl manufacturers.

I know Stacey and I know the “pipe maker”. There is some confusion about each party’s role. Stacy is the pipe maker. She owns the only company that produces Kirsten pipes. The so called “pipe maker” does not and has not ever manufactured or sold new Kirsten pipes.

Let’s deal with Stacey’s problems. First, the patents for the original pipes have run their course. Patents only last for 20 years. Secondly Trademarks are not violated if the re-seller discloses and credits the original manufacturer and does not try to sell them as original new products. In other words, Stacey cannot prevent someone from reproducing similar products. She does however have protection if someone tries to sell pipes as new Kirsten products.

Second, Stacy operates her business in the most hostile environment known to tobacco smokers. The city of Seattle is completely intolerant to those who smoke or sell tobacco products. Stacy has herself pointed out you cannot smoke tobacco in the city park but you can smoke marijuana.

Third, pipe manufacture is like all industries. You achieve economies in manufacturing via economies of scale. In other words the more you produce the cheaper it gets. With Kirsten, this involves the production of the radiator portion of the pipe. Fortunately, it is the most permanent part. Kirsten radiators can take a beating and go on smoking. They might not look great but they smoke just fine. The profit doesn’t lie in the radiator, it lies in the parts that do wear out and are, by design, replaceable.

The president of GM was once asked to identify GM’s biggest mistake. He replied that GM’s biggest error was they completely missed the market for spare parts.

There is a very good market for replacement parts for old Kirstens and a very profitable one that Kirsten could exploit with additional inventory and proper marketing.

Fourth, increasing Government regulations have destroyed a profit center by banning tobacconists from making their own blends. There are also regulations and expenses involved in selling multiple model pipes. Stacey has complained that she has to incur this expense for every combination of her pipes such as a different bowl or stem. I’m no expert in regulation but in my opinion, Kirsten only produces three models, straight, quarter bent and full bent. I believe a competent attorney could make that case.

The “pipe maker” getting blamed for Kirsten’s problems is in fact a “pipe restorer”. He acquires used Kirsten pipes (and also virtually any other metal pipes he can restore and re-sell) via the open market. He adds value to the used pipes by restoring them. This involves buffing out scratches, restoring the radiators to their former luster, cleaning old residue, deoxidizing, eliminating bite marks and chatter, re-sanding and restoring old bowls and a hundred other remedial tasks that all pipe restorers do. He does not produce and has never produced new bowls. He also does what other restorers do. When they have a part that cannot be repaired, they either buy the part from the manufacturer or if they cannot they hand make a replacement. This is tedious and painstaking work. In this case, Kirsten cannot or will not provide the parts; hence he makes them by hand. I’m quite sure he would much prefer to buy the parts if he could.

Regarding the adapter that turns a straight pipe into a bent pipe. The adapter simply changes the angle of the bowl. It doesn’t magically bend the stem into a quarter bent or full bent. It doesn’t turn the pipe into a sitter. The pedestal does that.

It occurs to me that if he produces the adapter and Kirsten produces the pedestal and stems that each would benefit. In other words, if each would cooperate by selling their parts to each other for retail and then passing these costs on each would make money.

One final thing: I recommend you read the pipe restorers’ ads on eBay. He extols the Kirsten Company and urges the buyer to buy from them. He identifies every part that is not a Kirsten part. He offers free returns. He identifies every alteration he makes and requests the buyer to call him directly if there are problems. He includes his contact info with every pipe sold.

I don’t have a dog in this fight. I have spoken to each party on numerous occasions and find they have always been reasonable and rational business people. I am obviously committed to seeing that their problems get resolved.

 
Jan 28, 2018
12,955
134,695
67
Sarasota, FL
If Stacey indeed wishes for this third party to quit supplying "faulty" parts, I would think all it would take is a firm letter from her Attorney. Given this is apparently a "hobby" for the third party, he would be a fool to continue making the parts. His profits from this "hobby" wouldn't pay for more than a few hours of legal representation.
Sounds like Stacey is dealing with numerous other issues in addition to the problems with this third party supplier and is showing her frustration by complaining about a few phone calls. Understandable.

 

5star

Part of the Furniture Now
Nov 17, 2017
727
2,018
PacNW USA
I know nothing about the details of this situation. I was an executive at a manufacturing company, however. Obviously, we would take no responsibility for parts we did not manufacture. That seems quite easy to convey to any complaining party.

I can't imagine accommodating someone manufacturing parts we did not make, either.

 
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