My Long Record of Being Wrong About Automobiles

[Briar Lee]

In 1973 I can remember seeing the first unleaded gas for sale at Bolivar.

I was raised conservative, and so naturally I thought that unleaded gasoline was an evil plot by do gooders to replace the wonderful leaded gasoline that was essential to keep cars and trucks from pinging on low octane gasoline.

And fifty years later, I was dead wrong. Although you ought to change them, spark plugs now last the life of the car. Engines outlast car bodies today. My Chrysler 300S is by far the fastest, quietest, durable, and highest mileage car I’ve ever owned. I just came back from a 350 mile two day trip where I averaged 25 mpg, and in a full sized car that weighs over two tons.

My 2012 300S Hemi had a sticker price of $40,000, and a brand new one exactly like it stickers for maybe $5,000 more. Mine is still perfect, so I don’t need a new one.

Missourians enjoy the lowest gas prices in the nation. Regular unleaded is about $3.25 a gallon, and on a long trip I get 25 mph, so it’s only 13 cents a mile fuel cost.

I hate the idea of electric cars. I like horsepower and dual exhausts and zero to sixty in 6 seconds.

And I’m wrong again.

Chevy is selling a $30,000 electric car with a 300 mile range that operates for 4 cents a mile electricity costs.

The First-Ever All-Electric Chevy Equinox EV: Electric SUV

The first-ever all-electric Chevy Equinox EV is built with a balance of SUV capability, modern technology, & convenient features for your everyday life..

www.chevrolet.com

My mother’s 1973 Caprice got 10 miles to the gallon on a long trip, and gas was fifty cents a gallon, and that was a nickel a mile when Half and Half tobacco was twenty five cents a pouch.

Maybe they can put a sound track of a V-8 rumbling in a new electric car.

But the ordinary gasoline car is a dinosaur, about like I am.

 

[HawkeyeLinus]

Recently traded my old Jeep for a new JL 2 door with the 2.0 turbo. I’m loving the new platform and getting 21 around town and over 26 on its only highway excursion so far. That’s great by me and vast improvement over the JK. It’s like a Stegosaurus with pep when I need it and gets me and the dog places we often need to get. So I’m Late Jurassic and it will take the next Ice Age for me to give it up! I’ll be a late adapter!

 

[Buffalo]

I hate the idea of electric cars. I like horsepower and dual exhausts and zero to sixty in 6 seconds.

You'd love a model S then, 0-60 in 2.07 seconds!

 

[Briar Lee]

You'd love a model S then, 0-60 in 2.07 seconds!

It’s hard for me to imagine the torque and low end acceleration of an electric car.

My Chrysler 300S is more powerful and better than almost all the small block muscle cars of the late sixties and equals most of the big blocks. And a Tesla S will eat it alive off the line.

As I understand the reason why, is the efficiency of a rotary electric against a reciprocating piston engine.

An electric motor has peak torque from rest. It doesn’t need a transmission. It turns in a circle and only has one, almost silent moving part. The reciprocating piston engine is just cool as can be, but can’t begin to match the efficiency of electric.

The one and only advantage my gasoline car has over an electric is range. With a full tank of 18 gallons I can easily travel 400 miles, then gas it back up in minutes.

Against that, an electric might safely run 250 miles, and need less than an hour on a fast public charger to regain 80% charge. Each year will find that improved, for a long time.

I travelled about 200 miles on Thursday and then about 150 miles Friday. I could have easily used an overnight charger at Springfield, Missouri.

A 750 mile trip to South Dakota would require a couple of one hour stops at public chargers.

It ought to be good for the road house business.

My mothers 10mpg 1973 Caprice required gassing about every 200 miles, if you pushed it, with a 22 gallon tank.

An electric is workable, and is about four times cheaper to fuel.

Eventually they’ll have to put a road tax on public chargers, and the old men will just piss, moan, bitch, groan and nearly die, when they do.

The same ones that always complain, about progress.

 

[Buffalo]

I own a collision shop and honestly, the whole electric car influx scares the crap out of me. Not that we can't repair them, but I honestly don't know if my small shop can afford to purchase the equipment to properly repair them.

 

[Briar Lee]

I own a collision shop and honestly, the whole electric car influx scares the crap out of me. Not that we can't repair them, but I honestly don't know if my small shop can afford to purchase the equipment to properly repair them.

Just yesterday, I was marveling how my ten year old unit body Chrysler still rides and drives like a brand new car with over 120,000 miles on it, remembering how my mother’s body on frame 1973 Caprice wallowed and rolled and rattled over gravel roads when it had less than 20,000 miles.

What I can’t understand is why a 1973 Chevy was as big as a river barge and yet my much smaller Chrysler both weigh just over two tons. Even a new V-8 Mustang weighs over two tons.

What changes are needed to make a new electric car besides replacing the engine and transmission with a rotary electric engine?

The car part of the electric car, ought to be close to what we have today, I’d always thought.

 

[mso489]

Electric vehicles still have a range less than most gas vehicles, on a full charge or a full tank. Charging stations are still not uniform and depending on the vehicle take longer to charge than to fill up a gas vehicle. I guess you take along a book or an audible book to play while you wait.

Though some electric vehicles have built-in sound effects, their quiet operation presents a hazard. The auditory dimension is just not there in many cases.

For practicality and economy, hybrids are a better bet than EV's, especially for people doing a road trip.

There are still too few charging stations, and since the connections are not uniform, some stations won't connect with some vehicles.

So we have a ways to go with EV's. Apparently they are the wave of the future, but for many drivers, they just don't have the range and available charge stations that are needed for all driving situations. And the cost of EV's is still in the luxury car category.

All this will change. But we're not there yet.

 

[Buffalo]

Just yesterday, I was marveling how my ten year old unit body Chrysler still rides and drives like a brand new car with over 120,000 miles on it, remembering how my mother’s body on frame 1973 Caprice wallowed and rolled and rattled over gravel roads when it had less than 20,000 miles.

What I can’t understand is why a 1973 Chevy was as big as a river barge and yet my much smaller Chrysler both weigh just over two tons. Even a new V-8 Mustang weighs over two tons.

What changes are needed to make a new electric car besides replacing the engine and transmission with a rotary electric engine?

The car part of the electric car, ought to be close to what we have today, I’d always thought.

It's more along the lines of specialized equipment to be able to deal with the electrical components on these vehicles. I've invested over $70000 in equipment to be able to repair aluminum vehicles in the last five years. From industry meetings and trade publications, the murmur is that electrical vehicle equipment could be close to $200000. As a shop that does about $600000 a year in sales, we just can't justify that kind of equipment investment. I'm 41 now, there isn't a snowballs chance in hell I would ever amortize that equipment over the course of the rest of my career.

I've been repairing vehicles for over 20 years and I can tell you that in just the last 2 decades, vehicle build quality has advanced leaps and bounds. Manufacturers had to do this, because consumers demanded it. No one would pay $50k for a vehicle that was worn out in less than 10 years. With all of the advancements in technology, vehicles are safer than they have ever been, they are more durable than they have ever been but are also more expensive than they have ever been.

It's funny you mention rattles. We just finished repairing a 21 Buick Enclave. We had to replace the rear end on the vehicle after someone decided to use the Enclave to stop instead of their brakes. We put over $1000 worth of NVH (noise, vibration and harshness) foam in just the rear body panel on that vehicle.

 

[Briar Lee]

I shoot skeet on Wednesday nights with a bunch of old men about my age that are afraid of any change whatsoever in our way of life.

I guess I’m afraid of change too, except my folks just hammered into me while I was growing up that change is good, and this old sin cussed world is better today than years ago, but not as good as it will be tomorrow, or the day after that.

The key to progress is public education. The key to public education is teaching children to look up facts, and learn on their own.

For all the arguments against electric vehicles this fact ensures that for the average car owner, an electric vehicle will be in their garage sooner than the old men claim.

—-

Electricity Costs for Charging​

The fuel efficiency of an EV may be measured in kilowatt-hours (kWh) per 100 miles. To calculate the cost per mile of an EV, the cost of electricity (in dollars per kWh) and the efficiency of the vehicle (how much electricity is used to travel 100 miles) must be known. If electricity costs ¢10.7 per kWh and the vehicle consumes 27 kWh to travel 100 miles, the cost per mile is about $0.03.

—-

I looked up the average number of miles American auto owner drives.

—-

Average miles driven per year in the U.S. (2022)​

On average, Americans drive 14,263 miles per year according to the Federal Highway Administration.​

—

When almost all cars are electric that average number of miles will certainly go up, maybe to 20,000 miles.

This is due to something called Jevon’s Paradox, something my seventh grade teacher Miss Charlotte taught all us kids about fifty years ago.

Jevons paradox - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

If I had my way we’d still have four barrel carburetors and point ignition.


Nothing duplicates the sound of a four barrel trying to suck a hole in the hood.

But since we can run a thousand miles for $30 on electricity no old man will be able to prevent it from happening, once new electric cars are the same price as gas ones.

 

[bullet08]

Hybrid. Best of both worlds. I've seen people driving those electric cars with gas power generator in the trunk. When the electric cars can do long distance and there are charging stations in every gas stations, I'll change over.

 

[Briar Lee]

Hybrid. Best of both worlds. I've seen people driving those electric cars with gas power generator in the trunk. When the electric cars can do long distance and there are charging stations in every gas stations, I'll change over.

What will doom hybrids over the long haul, are two things.

An electric car is much, much less costly to build than a car with an equivalent gas piston engine. Ford just announced their labor requirements to build all electric cars will be only 40% of present labor costs. To get that labor savings, the auxiliary gasoline motor must go.

The other reason is electric cars run down the road for three or four cents a mile, and which is much less than even the smallest gas engine operates on.

What will power all these electric cars?

To my astonishment the price of wind turbine energy now beats natgas energy.

Wind Energy Is One of the Cheapest Sources of Electricity, and It's Getting Cheaper

A comprehensive survey of the wind industry shows wind energy is routinely purchased in bulk for just two cents per kilowatt-hour—and turbines are only getting cheaper, bigger, and better

blogs.scientificamerican.com

And an American will make and service those wind turbines from American materials.

All my life there have been do gooders agsinst hydro power, nuclear power, coal mining, and gas fracking.

I own a 300 acre farm.

If you’d like to put up wind turbines on my place, call me anytime.

—-

If an energy developer finds a suitable location for their wind farm, the property owner will receive a wind turbine lease that confirms the conversion of their land, and proper compensation. The landowner will receive a monthly rental payment, which varies according to the number of wind turbines on the property, their location, and the rate of local competition. On average, a smaller, single wind turbine lease can be valued at around $8,000 per year; a larger turbine, between $50,000 to $80,000.

—

If my place ever does get wind turbines, just think how much more I could spend building fences, ponds, and such.

 

[bullet08]

What will doom hybrids over the long haul, are two things.

An electric car is much, much less costly to build than a car with an equivalent gas piston engine. Ford just announced their labor requirements to build all electric cars will be only 40% of present labor costs. To get that labor savings, the auxiliary gasoline motor must go.

The other reason is electric cars run down the road for three or four cents a mile, and which is much less than even the smallest gas engine operates on.

What will power all these electric cars?

To my astonishment the price of wind turbine energy now beats natgas energy.

Wind Energy Is One of the Cheapest Sources of Electricity, and It's Getting Cheaper

A comprehensive survey of the wind industry shows wind energy is routinely purchased in bulk for just two cents per kilowatt-hour—and turbines are only getting cheaper, bigger, and better

blogs.scientificamerican.com

And an American will make and service those wind turbines from American materials.

All my life there have been do gooders agsinst hydro power, nuclear power, coal mining, and gas fracking.

I own a 300 acre farm.

If you’d like to put up wind turbines on my place, call me anytime.

—-

If an energy developer finds a suitable location for their wind farm, the property owner will receive a wind turbine lease that confirms the conversion of their land, and proper compensation. The landowner will receive a monthly rental payment, which varies according to the number of wind turbines on the property, their location, and the rate of local competition. On average, a smaller, single wind turbine lease can be valued at around $8,000 per year; a larger turbine, between $50,000 to $80,000.

—

If my place ever does get wind turbines, just think how much more I could spend building fences, ponds, and such.

I'll wait till Hybrid engine cars come to its end. I'm sure technology will improve on those electric cars. But I'm not jumping on a band wagon.

 

[mso489]

It's always a pleasure to remember my two great aunts, sisters, who owned a Studebaker electric car in the 1920's. I wasn't around to see that, but I've seen that make of electric car and read about them. Since electricity wasn't universally available on the countryside at the time, electric cars were mostly used by town dwellers.

And because they didn't pose some of the dangers of gasoline cars, like breaking your arm crank starting a car, women often had electric cars, and they were accordingly designed to look like parlors in the interior, with tassel pull shades. Some of them were steered with a tiller rather than a steering wheel.

They were not rare at the time, and there were several volume manufacturers of electric cars in the U.S. Everything old is new again. All respect to my Aunts Celia and Belle for being early adaptors. They both lived into their nineties and I have good memories of them both.

 

[Briar Lee]

It's always a pleasure to remember my two great aunts, sisters, who owned a Studebaker electric car in the 1920's. I wasn't around to see that, but I've seen that make of electric car and read about them. Since electricity wasn't universally available on the countryside at the time, electric cars were mostly used by town dwellers.

And because they didn't pose some of the dangers of gasoline cars, like breaking your arm crank starting a car, women often had electric cars, and they were accordingly designed to look like parlors in the interior, with tassel pull shades. Some of them were steered with a tiller rather than a steering wheel.

They were not rare at the time, and there were several volume manufacturers of electric cars in the U.S. Everything old is new again. All respect to my Aunts Celia and Belle for being early adaptors. They both lived into their nineties and I have good memories of them both.

Before tractors and heavy trucks, there was a lot of money raising Missouri mules, and even more money in raising matched Missouri mule teams.

My great grandfather was born in 1845, rode with the 12th Missouri United States Volunteer Cavalry from 1864 to 1866, married a girl who died young, then my great grandmother in 1876, but only on the condition he buy her parents an 80 acre farm and her and him a 220 acre farm plus 20 acres of timber for them and 20 acres of timber for her parents.

To that union were born two sons and one daughter, who by 1908 convinced the old man to buy a brand new Ford Model T.

By then he’d won several top or nearly top prizes for mules at the Missouri State Fair, and the price of the new car was only a couple of mule teams.

Somewhere at the farm in a trunk I have a photo of him looking good, sitting in the back seat with his wife and daughter, my grandfather up front, and youngest son driving.

By their dress it was a Sunday, and they’re traveling two miles to the Plum Grove Congregationalist Christian Church.

The mule business came to an end one day in 1950, when my parents said over half the 18 remaining Perchon mares were killed by one lighting strike under an oak tree My grandfather had already sold the jacks needed to produce mules, but kept the mares to plow with.

He called the local trucker, who sent his son Ervin to drive the old man and seven huge draft horses to auction in Springfield.

When they got close Ervin told me my grandfather had him go to the killing plant (glue factory) and the old man stood there crying watching each horse shot.

He said he didn’t want them to be cut out after they left, and some Arkansawyer buying them to work in the timber, and neglect them.

By then my father had tractors, and draft horses weren’t worth much, anyway.

My mother had persuaded my father to buy her a new 1950 Ford.

I have photos of that, too.

Cars are not just about transportation.

For over a century we’ve lived in a golden land where every prosperous family can own their own magic carpet they can command to take them to anyplace they desire.

We are on the cusp of them not needing a muffler, that’s all.

 

[captpat]

Speaking of cost per mile, I 1972 my dad bought his first Mercedes diesel -- a 220D. He routinely exceeded 30 mpg, diesel at the the time was 0.299/gal, so about a penny a mile in fuel costs. He sold that car after 5 years and >120K miles for more than he bought it for new.

 

[JOHN72]

I believe that the new era of green hydrogen is coming. I hate electric cars, they are very expensive and their batteries are not easily recycled when they break down.

 

[Briar Lee]

I believe that the new era of green hydrogen is coming. I hate electric cars, they are very expensive and their batteries are not easily recycled when they break down.

I’ve been the anti tree hugging do gooder all of my life.

Yet the advantages of all electric cars are many, and available today.

Mazda tried and failed to make a commercial rotary gas engine, and Chrysler also failed to market a gas turbine engine. Basic rotary electric motors have been perfected for a century.

Attach a simple electric motor to an axle and there’s no need for any transmission. Diesel electric trains have done this for nearly a hundred years.

America has had a fully developed electric grid for about a century. Power lines go to the most remote areas of the nation.

The do gooders are going to block any future hydro or nuclear power projects. Natgas is going to kill coal for power generation because it’s easier to open a gas valve to run a power plant than fuel it with loose coal. Gas killed coal for home heating a long time ago, and will also win for power generation.

The thing that’s prevented electric cars is lack of energy density in batteries. Increased production has led to constant declines in the cost of EV batteries.

—

The price of EV battery cells has declined in recent years as production rose around the world. Battery cells currently cost $128 per kilowatt-hour on average, and by next year could cost around $110 per kilowatt-hour, E Source estimates. May 28, 2022

—-

But the most compelling reason the public is going to demand more battery powered cars is every one will scoot better than a 396 Chevelle and cost less to run than a Chevette, at prices far less than any gasoline engined car.

Plus there is nearly unlimited space to erect new generation wind turbines out in the countryside that will supply fuel, and cut off demand for gasoline.

About the only losers here are big oil companies and Arab oil sheiks.

The virtue of capitalism is that it delivers what people want, at the least price.

And this time around, our government should by regulation only allow domestic producers to profit.

This won’t happen tomorrow, but it will happen soon. Maybe by the time I put 300,000 miles on my Chrysler.

 

[PaulTheScandinavian]

I don't nothing,but one thing I can say ,those traditional big US mand sedans seem to be very reliable, long-lasting cars ,hence for the last ten or so years I have been preferring,rear-drive Fords Crown vics, Cadillacs, and lately Lincoln town car, for the size and comfort of drive on the high ways, fuel economy is quite satisfactory,

 

[canucklehead]

The efficiency of EVs for personal/passenger use declines rapidly in colder climates, heating the passenger cabin and some components uses nearly as much power as locomotion here in the winter (-15°C to -35°C, sometimes colder). Hybrid systems seem far more logical, as ICEs produce heat as a waste product. From what I have observed, only wealthy people buy EVs here, but Priuses are common, often as taxis and ubers.

IMO the most efficient possible transportation would be an older Toyota Corolla with manual transmission, driven right will get 35+ MPG, low purchase price ($1000-2000), relatively large carrying capacity, minimal maintenance costs (they are the most common car on the planet, all parts are inexpensive and easy to find), low insurance rates, and will easily last for 30+ years as long as you don't have accidents or drive irresponsibly.

 

[cshubhra]

Electric cars are the way to go in the future even though I am still an ICE car enthusiast.

As a family we often take day trips where we drive more than 500 miles per day. We often come back home after 1 AM. Having an electric car would mean we would either have to come back at 2 AM or change our lifestyle a little bit. This is one of the major blocker for us to switch to electric.

Originally electric car always meant Tesla, however since the Germans are coming up with some serious competition, I am closer to convert than earlier.

One of my colleagues is an electric car enthusiast. He had a Tesla model 3 earlier and now has converted to a BMW electric. Since he does not drink he took me as a passenger in his new BMW (I think it is iX). He also offered a test drive but I politely declined as it was foggy, rainy and we were navigating Friday rush hour traffic to our watering hole.

Our family car is a BMW X5 (ICE version of my colleagues iX)

The iX looks exquisite from the outside except for the highly debatable new kidney grill

Inside it felt like a BMW and the ride quality was of a BMW. I did not drive but I felt it would drive like a BMW.

I also chatted with my colleague extensively on his impression switching over from a Tesla. He thinks that the design is significantly better than a Tesla, feels much more luxurious than a Tesla and gives him a better range than as promised by BMW on the specs. However the iPad in the Tesla is much better than the corresponding iPad on his new BMW

I then compared with my own X5. The iX costs MUCH MORE than the X5 when similarly equipped (The difference could buy a new Honda CRV)

The interior while somewhat spartan is still luxurious but since it copied Tesla the similarly equipped X5 is still more luxurious.

I don’t like fiddling with electronics while driving. However I need to change AC and change music occasionally. I hated that they have lost the buttons and it’s only the touch screen to do these, which might be exciting to a Tesla owner but not preferred for us who want to look at the road and finds the buttons by touch.

Overall I felt that it is a much better electric than Tesla but still got rid of some of the good options of a BMW and copied over the bad options of Tesla.

Now I have to drive it the next time he offers to see how it is.