Is This KBB As Old As I Think It Is?

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JimInks

Sultan of Smoke
Aug 31, 2012
60,696
550,272
I'm wondering about how old is this KBB Templar 05 billiard that I just cleaned. @sablebrush52 and I think it was made in the 19-teens or early 1920s, but we aren't positive. I used a flashlight to look down the tenon, and it never had a stinger of any kind, which gave us an idea of its approximate age. But, I thought somebody here may have more information than Pipedia did. A Google search turned up nothing about the Templar KBBs. Any help would be appreciated.
KBB Templar 05 billiard.jpg
331259888_936528234362039_3470225052963152603_n.jpg
331307615_576728937698152_7747610132582362874_n.jpg
331430095_958418125073625_4710606793318157768_n.jpg
 

buckaroo

Lifer
Sep 30, 2014
1,152
2,884
So. Cal.
Tough one. The KBB clover on my 1920's KBB Paragon and churchwarden are very different. This clover looks late 40's to me. Never seen a Templar before. I could be wrong, but after KBB Kaywoodie ditched the KBB clover on their KW's in the very early 30's, they kept using it on subbrands. The Algerian Bruyere stamp and the script it's in too points to a later date for me.
 
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Aug 1, 2012
4,582
5,122
So, the clover looks like the post-war Yello-Bole version and the slot looks early transitional like the mid 20s to early 30s. The flaws also make me wonder. The other idea I have is that this pipe could be near to the 1941 time frame which could place the "templar" designation in the same time as the film The Maltese Falcon. Sadly, I can't find any real connections but those are my thoughts based on stamping and wording.
 
Jun 9, 2015
3,747
23,125
41
Mission, Ks
I have a lot of very early KB&B’s but I’ve never seen a Templar. To me, the script looks early, and it’s a two digit push bit. I’d also put it in the late teens. The only thing that’s throwing me off is the depth of the stamp, KB&B’s from that era tend to be stamped very shallow, with razor sharp lines. That’s a nice deep stamp.
 

leonardbill1

Lifer
May 21, 2017
1,360
5,740
Denver, CO
I'm not an expert, but I believe that the following is accurate with respect to Kaywoodie pipes, and if also applicable to this Templar pipe, suggests a date range of 1924 - 1936:

1. Starting in 1924 the ampersand was dropped from the KBB initials in the clover stamp.

2. Starting in 1936 the Imported Briar stamp was used in place of prior stampings such as Algerian Bruyere, Aged Bruyere, Grecian Briar, etc.

There is what I consider to be a very good article on Kaywoodie pipes by Dennis Moore in the Summer 1999 - Winter 2000 Pipe Smoker's Ephemeris. He notes that the first Kaywoodies (1919 - 1924) were stamped with a four-digit shape number. In 1924 Kaywoodie introduced the Drinkless pipe (push tenon with stinger) which were stamped with a two-digit shape number. In 1929 Kaywoodie introduced the Synchro-stem pipe (metal screw tenon with stinger), at which time it returned to stamping pipes with a four-digit shape number. If the foregoing is also applicable to the Templar pipe, then it suggests to me that the date range could be narrowed to 1924 - 1929. If that is in fact a good date range, the lack of a stinger in the Templar pipe wouldn't surprise me as the stinger was the selling point for the Drinkless pipe.
 

craig61a

Lifer
Apr 29, 2017
5,740
47,392
Minnesota USA
FWIW, the oldest Kaywoodies I have are Patent Applied For Drinkless Syncrostems, which places them in the 1929-1932 range.

The clover on these looks very similar to the one shown by the OP. The ‘05’ shape billiard appears to use similar number font as well.

As I look at what is within reach of my desk, it appears in the 1930’s-40’s the clover stamp changes in size and layout (style) every so often. Maybe they didn’t always use same stamp maker. But I think that the previously mentioned time frame of 1924-1929 and the similarities of the stamping might reinforce that.

05FE6A02-6FC2-4BC5-8B68-9892F2F074AF.jpegFF8E517E-0234-4AB8-9B62-0A37F8C2AAA6.jpeg
 

FurCoat

Lifer
Sep 21, 2020
8,702
77,852
North Carolina
I'm not an expert, but I believe that the following is accurate with respect to Kaywoodie pipes, and if also applicable to this Templar pipe, suggests a date range of 1924 - 1936:

1. Starting in 1924 the ampersand was dropped from the KBB initials in the clover stamp.

2. Starting in 1936 the Imported Briar stamp was used in place of prior stampings such as Algerian Bruyere, Aged Bruyere, Grecian Briar, etc.

There is what I consider to be a very good article on Kaywoodie pipes by Dennis Moore in the Summer 1999 - Winter 2000 Pipe Smoker's Ephemeris. He notes that the first Kaywoodies (1919 - 1924) were stamped with a four-digit shape number. In 1924 Kaywoodie introduced the Drinkless pipe (push tenon with stinger) which were stamped with a two-digit shape number. In 1929 Kaywoodie introduced the Synchro-stem pipe (metal screw tenon with stinger), at which time it returned to stamping pipes with a four-digit shape number. If the foregoing is also applicable to the Templar pipe, then it suggests to me that the date range could be narrowed to 1924 - 1929. If that is in fact a good date range, the lack of a stinger in the Templar pipe wouldn't surprise me as the stinger was the selling point for the Drinkless pipe.
What struck me about this pipe is the lack of the Kaywoodie script on the shank and the clover on the stem. So it is safe to assume that Kaywoodie released pipes after 1919 without these markings? An honest question, I'm no expert at dating pipes.
 

crashthegrey

Lifer
Dec 18, 2015
3,797
3,536
41
Cobleskill, NY
www.greywoodie.com
What struck me about this pipe is the lack of the Kaywoodie script on the shank and the clover on the stem. So it is safe to assume that Kaywoodie released pipes after 1919 without these markings? An honest question, I'm no expert at dating pipes.
Kaywoodie was just a line released by KB&B that slowly took over the branding. There are lots of oddities over the years because of this.