Info About Dunhill's "Not For Sale" Pipes

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jguss

Lifer
Jul 7, 2013
2,411
6,211
I'm delighted to see so much of this thread dedicated to Pipes by Lee, a justly neglected brand, if only for the amusement value it affords. Since in the course of reading the many posts herein I've been reminded that refutation consists of contradiction (as Monty Python demonstrated so well a half century ago), I will dispense with the cumbersome need for evidence and simply point out:

Lee advertised and sold two sub brands. One is a Stroller, and if I ever see a good one I’ll buy it. The other is Briarlee, which is my favorite Lee made pipe for this reason:

There was essentially one sub brand as you call it, Briarlee; and under the Briarlee brand several models were introduced over the years, including the Invincible and the Illustrious (sold from the launch of the company onward), the Stroller (introduced the following year, and initially at least distinguished by its hand carved finish), and the Goodfellow. In addition to the Briarlee various other brands were sold by the company at various times including the Trailblazer, a Pipe by Lee (sold when the company was launched and priced, at $7.50, squarely between the two and three star pipes). There were also a spate of pipes introduced after the transition, about which more later.

What a Briarlee was, quite obviously, was a pipe Lee was making for at least a four star or five star grade that didn’t quite make the grade.

Certainly not. What a Briarlee was, quite obviously, was a pipe that didn't make the grade to be a Pipe by Lee, i.e. a starred pipe. That's why they were priced so much lower than the starred pipes: in 1946 the Invincible was $1.50, the Illustrious was $2.50, and upon its introduction the next year the Stroller was priced the same as the Illustrious. If the company could have sold these pipes for the same prices as a lower grade starred pipe it would have. Pipes are like many manufactured items; pricing is a function of yield. The yield for "better" pipes is less, and the price is correspondingly higher. Conversely the yield for "worse" pipes is higher, and they are sold for less.

But there must have been a man making pipes, who marketed them as Star Grade Pipes by Lee. Maybe Lee was his wife, or even his dog, or his dead father’s name. They were distributed by the Stuart Allen Company. But let’s call him Lee.

The company was not named for his dog (he was allergic), or his wife (whose name was Rose); it was a diminutive of his given (or as we called it in the unenlightened days of my youth, Christian) name. The name of the distributor is spelled Stewart-Allen, not Stuart Allen, and they came into the picture later.
 

jguss

Lifer
Jul 7, 2013
2,411
6,211
Lee could not possibly have made 100% firsts.

If by firsts you mean Five star pipes this is undoubtedly so (barring cheating in the form of lowered standards). The same is true of any very high end model offered by any pipe manufacturer, e.g. straight grains, Blue Ribands, etc. These were prestige items and by the nature of the raw material could not possibly be made in large quantity.

If Lee contracted his production (like Mastercraft) his supplier could not have made 100% firsts.

He did not; he bought a building on the UES of Manhattan shortly after the end of WW2 and after renovation staffed it with newly hired production workers.

Limited Edition

This trademark, by the way, dates to the formation of the company with a claimed first use of October 29, 1945.

Beside it, are two other Lee products, a Briarlee and a Pipe Maker.

If Pipe Maker was made by Lee it appears in none of their advertisements, trade notices, or catalogs, and as Snag says was a brand used by another manufacturer.

Remember every workman at Lee was trying to make a $25 grade Five Star.

Untrue. If Five star has any meaning (and here I admit to a degree of skepticism; Lee was preeminently a marketer, and as a breed they tend to place sizzle above steak) it would lie not just in workmanship but the quality of the briar, and that's a gift of nature and not in the power of the carver. Each worker was trying to keep his job by steadily producing what pipes could be made out of the blocks that were available.

(Lee didn’t use numbers)

Of course he did; see the catalog illustrations.

Lee advertised a $$3.50 One Star Lee in the very first 1946 introductory catalog. After that it’s gone. I’ve never seen a one star.

The company was uninterested in One Stars; they appear virtually nowhere in contemporaneous records. And if you search prior auction sales you'll see the overwhelming number of surviving pipes are Three Stars, with a smattering of Twos and Fours.

if Lee wasn’t Wally Frank by another name

He wasn't. Two different men, with two different businesses and two different families.

There is one source that lists Gold Coast as a Lee sub brand

No, there are many. After Lee sold out Stewart-Allen introduced Lee's Gold Coast at $2.50, a Briarlee Selected at $0.98, and three models under the Stewart-Allen name: the Selected at $0.98, the Natural at $1.49 and the Antique at $1.49. The move downmarket is indicative of the failure of Lee's original strategy, as for that matter is the sale of his business and subsequent departure from the scene.

What leads me to suspect that Lee, was really Wally Frank are several things.

Wally Frank probably had the largest mail order pipe business in the United States, and Frank had the mailing lists to go with it.

The Lee screw stem looks to be an infringement on a Kaywoodie. On a Pipe Maker it’s a downright copy, although an improved one, with a removable stinger.

Look at this famous Wally Frank advertisement from the 1930’s

F7F525E9-9077-4C5A-8684-861DA404B676.jpeg

You forgot a few things: Lee had two arms and legs, and so did Wally Frank. Lee lived in the United States, so did Wally Frank. Both ate and eliminated on a regular basis. But despite these astounding coincidences they were different men. And by the way the starred pipe was made in London, and represented something cheap; this is the antithesis of Lee's marketing strategy (and marketing was his particular expertise).

There’s no big briar shipments in early 1946 when somebody who makes Pipes by Lee launches what turned out to be a 25 year run of what appears to be a mail order pipe business, in downtown New York City, that caters to the top end of the pipe market.

Such imported briar as was available at that time was sold by a government entity called the United States Commercial Co. Lee successfully competed at an auction to purchase 300 bags of wood; it was with this initial raw material in inventory that he was able to start his business. It's also worth noting that by the time of Pipe by Lee's launch he had been in the industry for about two decades and had the relationships necessary to scavenge additional briar.
 

sablebrush52

The Bard Of Barlings
Jun 15, 2013
19,621
44,832
Southern Oregon
jrs457.wixsite.com
So we are left exactly where we started. No where closer to the truth. In fact, we are further from the truth it seems.
Not entirely. Jon's information comes from advertisements, business filings, trade journals, and other printed records.
Lee wan't Wally Frank, but even Wally Frank wasn't Wally Frank. He was Frankly Wall and invented the Wally Frank name so as not to embarrass his father, an Episcopalian Rabbi who led a small congregation located in South Northern East Hoople West.
 

Briar Lee

Lifer
Sep 4, 2021
4,759
13,781
Humansville Missouri
If by firsts you mean Five star pipes this is undoubtedly so (barring cheating in the form of lowered standards). The same is true of any very high end model offered by any pipe manufacturer, e.g. straight grains, Blue Ribands, etc. These were prestige items and by the nature of the raw material could not possibly be made in large quantity.



He did not; he bought a building on the UES of Manhattan shortly after the end of WW2 and after renovation staffed it with newly hired production workers.



This trademark, by the way, dates to the formation of the company with a claimed first use of October 29, 1945.



If Pipe Maker was made by Lee it appears in none of their advertisements, trade notices, or catalogs, and as Snag says was a brand used by another manufacturer.



Untrue. If Five star has any meaning (and here I admit to a degree of skepticism; Lee was preeminently a marketer, and as a breed they tend to place sizzle above steak) it would lie not just in workmanship but the quality of the briar, and that's a gift of nature and not in the power of the carver. Each worker was trying to keep his job by steadily producing what pipes could be made out of the blocks that were available.



Of course he did; see the catalog illustrations.



The company was uninterested in One Stars; they appear virtually nowhere in contemporaneous records. And if you search prior auction sales you'll see the overwhelming number of surviving pipes are Three Stars, with a smattering of Twos and Fours.



He wasn't. Two different men, with two different businesses and two different families.



No, there are many. After Lee sold out Stewart-Allen introduced Lee's Gold Coast at $2.50, a Briarlee Selected at $0.98, and three models under the Stewart-Allen name: the Selected at $0.98, the Natural at $1.49 and the Antique at $1.49. The move downmarket is indicative of the failure of Lee's original strategy, as for that matter is the sale of his business and subsequent departure from the scene.



You forgot a few things: Lee had two arms and legs, and so did Wally Frank. Lee lived in the United States, so did Wally Frank. Both ate and eliminated on a regular basis. But despite these astounding coincidences they were different men. And by the way the starred pipe was made in London, and represented something cheap; this is the antithesis of Lee's marketing strategy (and marketing was his particular expertise).



Such imported briar as was available at that time was sold by a government entity called the United States Commercial Co. Lee successfully competed at an auction to purchase 300 bags of wood; it was with this initial raw material in inventory that he was able to start his business. It's also worth noting that by the time of Pipe by Lee's launch he had been in the industry for about two decades and had the relationships necessary to scavenge additional briar.
I’m proud to say all my pencils have erasers, and I’m quick to use them.

Thanks for all coorections and new information you’ve provided.

A clarification. Lee did have catalog numbers, but I’ve not seen any number stamped on a Lee pipe.

And when I said Lee could not make all firsts, that meant all Pipe by Lee-A Limited Edition-An Authentic Imported Briar stamp—-same catalog number-$5-$10-$15-$25.

Even a 7 or 5 point era Two Star Lee will not have fills. Very early Star Grade stamped Lee’s (1946?) have outrageous briar quality, no fills, top shelf briar.

I’ve noticed a Two Star Lee, isn’t that much less (certainly not by half) the quality of a Three Star, and I only have one late stamped star era Four Star, and one 5 point Five Star.

That’s why I’m wondering howLee inletted those stars.

The early 7 pointed star pipes, are almost matte, both briar and stem.

Did Lee get in a bunch of orders, and stamp the appropriate stars on a box full of pipes?

I’m glad Lee sold out.

I hope he lived happily ever after.

I’m going to round up some Pipe Makers and some Lees all the same shape, size, and stinger.

If Lee didn’t make them, somebody was making a hybrid copy of Lee’s removable stinger, with Kaywoodie’s front mount.

And, doesn’t it make since Pipe Maker was some famous maker’s sub brand?

Most of those old pipe makers, were right proud of their names.:)
 
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jguss

Lifer
Jul 7, 2013
2,411
6,211
Not entirely. Jon's information comes from advertisements, business filings, trade journals, and other printed records.
Lee wan't Wally Frank, but even Wally Frank wasn't Wally Frank. He was Frankly Wall and invented the Wally Frank name so as not to embarrass his father, an Episcopalian Rabbi who led a small congregation located in South Northern East Hoople West.

I’m ashamed to admit Jesse’s right, and ruefully confess to the distinction between unsupported and unsupportable.
 

cigrmaster

Lifer
May 26, 2012
20,249
57,280
66
Sarasota Florida
It is so easy to spot the lawyers on this thread. I haven't heard this much lawyer speak since sitting around the dinner table with my grandfather, father and uncle who were all lawyers . My father was a corporate attorney for over 40 years in Boston and trying to win an argument against him was such a chore. His favorite saying was stop trying to defend the indefensible. But I learned really early in life the value of a lawyer in the family. I threatened my biology teacher when I was 14 as he wanted to make me take the final again as I got an A and he knew I had to have cheated. I told him the proctor was there the whole time and never spoke to me. Yes I sat next to the smartest girl in the class and cheated my ass off. I told the teacher I was not going to take the test again and if he has a problem with t you can call my father who is a corporate lawyer. He didn't bother to call. He also couldn't believe he was being threatened by this 14 year old punk.

I wielded my father like Excalibur in my business and personal life.. My oldest daughter is finishing law school so once again I have a lawyer in the family. I have missed it, The power to fuck with insurance companies is one of the best parts of lawyers in the family.

Until the pipe is in his hands and pictures are taken, there is not much more to be discussed Not For Sale Wise.

lee pipes, never heard of them, don't care about them and honestly never will.
 

hauntedmyst

Lifer
Feb 1, 2010
4,006
20,750
Chicago
Until the pipe is in his hands and pictures are taken, there is not much more to be discussed Not For Sale Wise.

Well, maybe not a discussion but we can certainly lay down bets for it's authenticity!

Having been a 30 year Dunhill collector and having sold them in shops for 20 years, I still consider myself an unqualified novice in the area of authenticating Dunhills, yet when I saw the pipe on eBay, it was clear to me it was not a Dunhill produced product. So much of it is wrong. It has that Fauxrrari look about it, made by an amateur with an excess load of Ferrari stickers, too little talent and money to create a genuine replica.

That being said, aside from the spattering of insults, I love this thread. I love that we have some deep knowledge on pipes on this forum and it's awesome to see that knowledge come out in a dispute like this.
 

cigrmaster

Lifer
May 26, 2012
20,249
57,280
66
Sarasota Florida
I am pretty sure it is fake also but the case cannot be closed until Judge George makes his ruling. Could it be one of the pipes that the guy who bought out James Upshall company has sold over the years.
That guy had all kinds of stamps.
 

Briar Lee

Lifer
Sep 4, 2021
4,759
13,781
Humansville Missouri
Today in the mail I received a very rare pipe from an eBay seller in Ukraine.

In the early career of Eric Nording, he made pipes in partnership with another man stamped as SON. Nording went out on his own and did not get the SON trademark. This seller had two or three of these rare pipes, but this one was only $35 postpaid from Ukraine, because he said it had a crack in the left side, not reaching the top of the bowl.

I could not believe my good luck to receive a brand new, unsmoked SON that only has a small fill on the left side, not a crack.

Alas, a young Eric Nording improperly stamped the letter SON on his pipe over 55 years ago. And I suppose back in his early days the automated machines he used turned out utterly perfect pipes, of the same exact kind made in Italy today that usually sell for as much as $80 if they bear a generic stamp.

It is a gorgeous, well made (but not bench made) pipe with flawless presentation looking like it’s spent over a half century in a time capsule.

But since the SON trademark doesn’t look right, I’m suspicious somebody contracted with an Italian pipe maker for a whole run of beautiful $80 factory smokers, or else there’s a pipe fairy.

But this is the prettiest $35 new pipe I think I’ve bought in years.

I’m about to see how it smokes.

FBD029A7-F5FB-4721-899A-F3087EF78B06.jpeg6A39B074-8349-42EE-A1F6-ACE5AF174A46.jpeg28990168-F44C-489C-B943-4D8EE307063A.jpegC700A462-C84A-4E69-A3FF-DB5BAD41B979.jpeg2A5B40A5-B300-4D13-A166-CF3B4703487A.jpeg318D7056-C8D2-4F56-8C09-C74D22C4A351.jpeg687F3D48-B4DB-4DD3-AE11-8D7B1E6B8CD4.jpeg9ED3AD05-0FC6-4BD1-99FE-7A90FF4F2D6F.jpeg3198E02E-F7F2-4754-9208-4514FC8EA288.jpeg
 

Briar Lee

Lifer
Sep 4, 2021
4,759
13,781
Humansville Missouri
I love how well Briar Lee is successfully, and apparently unknowingly, trolling you all without seeming to try. So many sucked into this, myself included and a few of us can't seem to stop. This is internet art.

Counterfeiting is a nefarious trade and I’d not buy a pipe I knew, to be a counterfeit.

I’m sitting here after a long day at the office smoking a genuine SON pipe, it’s just not one made by Eric Nording back in the early 1960’s.

Whichever pipe factory made it, was afraid to stamp it as a Nording.

And just now, a gorgeous, obviously bench made high quality pipe with the name obscured, by over polishing, was cancelled by the eBay seller. I’d won ig for $22 plus $3.95 shipping.

Do you buy this explanation?


New message from: phikrum-76 (1,238 Red Star )

HI
I had to cancel your order
While cleaning i noticed a small crack in the end of the shank
If in the future you see another pipe in my shop
I will give you a 20% discount
Just remind me before you pay. Sorry this happened
Phil​

3D55F1FB-407A-4C94-94F6-46403C6DFE1B.jpeg

So long, Phil, I’ll not be buying more stuff in your shop.:)

But the Ukrainian seller that gave me such a sweet $35 deal on my SON, has this Savinelli for sale for only $150. I think I’ll pass on this, too.

09EC47D4-8CC7-42E2-9EC0-9120BDF129ED.jpeg
 
Last edited:

georged

Lifer
Mar 7, 2013
5,491
13,919
I love how well Briar Lee is successfully, and apparently unknowingly, trolling you all without seeming to try. So many sucked into this, myself included and a few of us can't seem to stop. This is internet art.
I've been on pipe boards since before the World Wide Web existed.

This Lee type of thing used to be called "carpet bombing".

Being a wonderful way to frustrate---and thereby drive away---serious users, competing forum owners would create bogus accounts and do it to each other upon occasion.

Walking the line is indeed an artform. Posts juuuust (arguably) relevant enough to allow, while nonsensical enough to get people to throw up their hands in frustration and say the hell with this.

Over and over again... No pyrotechnics, no fights, nothing bannable; just slow, constrictor-snake-like suffocation from the endless, barely marginally relevant endlessness.

Me saying this will undoubtedly cause an exponentially greater number of lateral responses than this thread has already had, of course, only expanding the quicksand pit.

It would be funny if it weren't so sad. Truly.
 
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