HOF Voting

[kcghost]

The votes are in and Derek Jeter and Larry Walker have been elected the Baseball Hall of Fame. No surprise on Jeter (yes he wasn't unanimous but who cares). Walker had a hard row to hoe in order to get there. He got in on his final ballot which was very close. For some reason the voter just couldn't warm to him because of his affiliation with Colorado extreme hitting environment. Fortunately the sabermetric community got behind him and got him in. The next three or four years will present the BBWAA with a clear shot to clear the deck of the logjam of good candidates with no obvious candidates coming. Schilling should get in next year if he can keep his mouth shut that log.

 

[crawdad]

I might hate the Yanks, but of course Jeter belongs in the HOF (He’s what, one of the top shortstops of all time? Of course he’s no Ernie Banks ; p ). I won’t name names, but there’s a couple of juicers with a couple of years left to make it in and I’m piqued to see how the BBWAA handle it.

I LOATHE juicers.

 

[JimInks]

I have no use for steroid users. It's too bad Piazza the Juice Man got in. I gave up on the HOF because of the juicers and those who really don't belong who got in. Like Harold Baines and Larry Walker. Walker only played four whole seasons out of 17. That's not a Hall of Famer to me. I go with what Johnny Bench once said: "The Hall of Fame is for the great, not the near great". If a player isn't at the top of his position for at least 8 to 10 years, he's not deserving of the Hall to me.

The Hall is for players on the level of Ruth, Williams, Johnson, Clemente, Aaron, Mays, DiMaggio, Gibson, Bench, Berra, Mantle, Frank and Brooks Robinson, and Gehrig, not players like Larry Walker, Harold Baines, Waite Hoyt, Tim Raines, or Jeff Bagwell ( who many think juiced, too).

Cooperstown needs people in each year to help their business and local economy. Too many sports writers haven't seen the guys they vote on play, and just look at analytics, which do not tell you the whole story about players by any means. WAR is a bad stat; useless and inaccurate.

Btw, Jeff Kent should be in the Hall. Larry Walker was a terrific player, but not a Hall of Famer by my lights.

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

I have no use for steroid users. It's too bad Piazza the Juice Man got in. I gave up on the HOF because of the juicers and those who really don't belong who got in. Like Harold Baines and Larry Walker. Walker only played four whole seasons out of 17. That's not a Hall of Famer to me. I go with what Johnny Bench once said: "The Hall of Fame is for the great, not the near great". If a player isn't at the top of his position for at least 8 to 10 years, he's not deserving of the Hall to me.

The Hall is for players on the level of Ruth, Williams, Johnson, Clemente, Aaron, Mays, DiMaggio, Gibson, Bench, Berra, Mantle, Frank and Brooks Robinson, and Gehrig, not players like Larry Walker, Harold Baines, Waite Hoyt, Tim Raines, or Jeff Bagwell ( who many think juiced, too).

Cooperstown needs people in each year to help their business and local economy. Too many sports writers haven't seen the guys they vote on play, and just look at analytics, which do not tell you the whole story about players by any means. WAR is a bad stat; useless and inaccurate.

Btw, Jeff Kent should be in the Hall. Larry Walker was a terrific player, but not a Hall of Famer by my lights.

Very well said, I 100% agree. To speak Walker's name in the same breath as Mantle or Mays is a travesty.

 

[alaskanpiper]

Pay me as much money as they get paid and you can put me in the Hall of Fat Hairy Pig Turds for all I care. Anyone who cheated to get those dollars should not only be permanently excluded from being honored in any way related to the sport, they should have their earnings garnished and donated to youth baseball programs.

 

[3rdguy]

It should be just the greats. It is turning into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

 

[Peter Peachfuzz]

I have no use for steroid users. It's too bad Piazza the Juice Man got in. I gave up on the HOF because of the juicers and those who really don't belong who got in. Like Harold Baines and Larry Walker. Walker only played four whole seasons out of 17. That's not a Hall of Famer to me. I go with what Johnny Bench once said: "The Hall of Fame is for the great, not the near great". If a player isn't at the top of his position for at least 8 to 10 years, he's not deserving of the Hall to me.

The Hall is for players on the level of Ruth, Williams, Johnson, Clemente, Aaron, Mays, DiMaggio, Gibson, Bench, Berra, Mantle, Frank and Brooks Robinson, and Gehrig, not players like Larry Walker, Harold Baines, Waite Hoyt, Tim Raines, or Jeff Bagwell ( who many think juiced, too).

Cooperstown needs people in each year to help their business and local economy. Too many sports writers haven't seen the guys they vote on play, and just look at analytics, which do not tell you the whole story about players by any means. WAR is a bad stat; useless and inaccurate.

Btw, Jeff Kent should be in the Hall. Larry Walker was a terrific player, but not a Hall of Famer by my lights.

You left out Pete

 

[voorhees]

It should be just the greats. It is turning into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

Yeah don’t get me started on that Biggie Smalls inductee...ridiculous.

 

[JimInks]

You left out Pete

If you meant Pete Rose, I'll say he doesn't deserve the Hall of Fame because of his gambling as a player and as a manager. He lied and lied and lied and lied about breaking that rule for many, many years, a rule that meant a life time banishment. Even when Manfred gave him another meeting and another chance to clean up his act, Rose lied to his face about his continued gambling, and only admitted it when Manfred showed him the proof of the lies. He was a great ball player, but he took the risks that he was above the rules of baseball, gambling that he'd get away with it all, and as far as I'm concerned, it was a losing gamble for him. He gets no sympathy from him.

 

[crawdad]

You left out Pete

Geez, you had to bring him up. I say give to him after he passes away. He was arguably the best dirt dog that ever played the game and I don't even like him.

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

If you meant Pete Rose, I'll say he doesn't deserve the Hall of Fame because of his gambling as a player and as a manager. He lied and lied and lied and lied about breaking that rule for many, many years, a rule that meant a life time banishment. Even when Manfred gave him another meeting and another chance to clean up his act, Rose lied to his face about his continued gambling, and only admitted it when Manfred showed him the proof of the lies. He was a great ball player, but he took the risks that he was above the rules of baseball, gambling that he'd get away with it all, and as far as I'm concerned, it was a losing gamble for him. He gets no sympathy from him.

Pete Rose was a POS and does not deserve to be in the HOF. The move he pulled in the Allstar game, taking out Ray Fosse, was pure bush league. I'm all for great hustle but they were professionals, it was an exhibition (Allstar Game) and Fosse was never the same after that. What if that had been Johnny Bench and he ended his career? The HOF has become so diluted, they may let Rose in some day. What a shame that will be and an insult to all the great HOF'ers who played the game the way it was meant to be played.

 

[Spinkle]

Pete Rose is quite before my time, but it seems to me a bit hypocritical to keep him out if he was as good as I’ve read based on his off field behaviour. Seems like there are a lot of people in there that were not exactly paragons of virtue.

This would presuppose that he never intentionally threw games for a pay day - sounds like as jiminks says that this guy may have not been well acquainted with the truth in anything so I’m on the fence.

 

[JimInks]

Pete Rose is quite before my time, but it seems to me a bit hypocritical to keep him out if he was as good as I’ve read based on his off field behaviour. Seems like there are a lot of people in there that were not exactly paragons of virtue.

This would presuppose that he never intentionally threw games for a pay day - sounds like as jiminks says that this guy may have not been well acquainted with the truth in anything so I’m on the fence.

There is a character clause in the rules for who gets in and who stays out. That rule was often ignored by voters. Rose knew the life time banishment rule and somehow thought he'd get away with it for many years. After all, he was "good ol' Pete", so the rules didn't apply to him. So he spent over twenty years lying about his gambling in every media outlet he could find. He finally admitted it to sell a book, which he sat there and signed copies right across the street from the HoF ceremonies to make money. He did that more than once. You can't expect that to sit well with the Hall of Fame.

As a manager, it was shown that he'd never bet on a game if he thought the Reds would lose. That would change the betting odds on games, and help his gambler friends. And when he bet on a game for his team to win, imagine what he might have done to make sure he wouldn't lose that bet. That would mean gambling with the careers of his players. Use a pitcher too much, too often on games Rose bet on and throw that fella's arm and career away? You have an outfielder with a sore leg, and he hurts it when he shouldn't have been playing, and he misses significant time, and runs the risk of hurting his career? Of course it's okay. Gotta win that money, man.

He was given more than one chance to be reinstated. He was told no more gambling on horses or anything. Rose did it anyway, and lied and lied about it as I indicated in my earlier post.

And just a couple of years back, Rose admitted to sleeping with an underage girl while he played with the Reds, and he was married at the time. Rose said he didn't know she was underage and maybe he didn't. But, it still doesn't look good. It cost him his job at Fox Sports, and the public has mostly turned their backs on him.

 

[Spinkle]

As usual you make a convincing case, Jim. I will just add that I have always enjoyed that baseball seems to have more of “cast of characters” than other sports - admittedly most of my knowledge of the history of the game comes from watching and rewatching Ken Burns’ series. So I guess I figure every good story needs a villain but for now good seems to have triumphed.

 

[litup]

I was half glad when Baines got in because he became the worst player in the Hall of Fame and took some of the heat off my favorite player, Jim Rice, who had frequently been tagged with that ignoble appellative.

 

[Peter Peachfuzz]

Got a link to where he was betting as a player?

 

[JimInks]

There are a great many links on the 'net for the answer, Here are a couple of links:

Pete Rose: Caught Red-Handed

In the wake of an ESPN report that proves he bet on baseball as a player, it’s time to say goodbye to MLB’s all-time hits king

www.rollingstone.com

Report: Notebook pages show Pete Rose bet on baseball as player

Pages from a long-hidden notebook published on Monday show Pete Rose bet on baseball as a player, contradicting his long-standing claim that he bet only as a manager.

www.si.com

Some betting sheets:

Pete Rose Physical Evidence

Baseball Almanac presents physical evidence and detailed information about the Pete Rose banishment.

www.baseball-almanac.com

Pete Rose's Betting Sheets Analyzed -

Pete Rose, baseball’s all time hit leader, was banished from baseball after a 1989 raid on his former bookie’s house in New York led to the discovery that Rose was illegally betting on baseball while he was a player and a manager. Baseball’s rules strictly prohibit betting on baseball in any way...

www.sportsbookadvisor.com

 

[Spinkle]

What a buffoon.

I must admit that in 1989 I was only 7 years old and the SkyDome had just opened and the Blue Jays were inching towards their championships incrementally. So I never really knew much about Pete Rose; he was more like a footnote to the game after that, and all of this exciting stuff was going on with the Jays I doubt I would have paid much attention anyway.

In reality we never got any news about National League teams except when the trade with San Diego was made for Robbie Alomar and Joe Carter. When the World Series came along it felt so strange to be playing these teams I'd never heard of. I think baseball lost some of the magic when the expanded and went to interleague play.

 

[Bowie]

What a buffoon.

I must admit that in 1989 I was only 7 years old and the SkyDome had just opened and the Blue Jays were inching towards their championships incrementally. So I never really knew much about Pete Rose; he was more like a footnote to the game after that, and all of this exciting stuff was going on with the Jays I doubt I would have paid much attention anyway.

In reality we never got any news about National League teams except when the trade with San Diego was made for Robbie Alomar and Joe Carter. When the World Series came along it felt so strange to be playing these teams I'd never heard of. I think baseball lost some of the magic when the expanded and went to interleague play.

I know what you mean. I'm an Astros fan. (Or maybe a former Astros fan. Or an Astros fan on sabbatical. But that's a different story.) When they switched to the AL, it took some getting used to. I'm older than you, and I remember the TV coverage switching to Rose's AB when he hit #4,192 in 1985.

 

[Spinkle]

I know what you mean. I'm an Astros fan. (Or maybe a former Astros fan. Or an Astros fan on sabbatical. But that's a different story.) When they switched to the AL, it took some getting used to. I'm older than you, and I remember the TV coverage switching to Rose's AB when he hit #4,192 in 1985.

This confused the hell out of me when it happened as I remember the Blue Jays playing the Brewers often when I was young. I seem to recall someone opining that Bud Selig had always held the National League (Senior Circuit?) in higher regard and had orchestrated things to move the Brewers to the NL. For that reason when the expansion happened it was the Astros that got moved instead of just moving the Brewers back to the AL when they moved to every day interleague play.