Have C&D Cakes Changed Lately?

[jaytex1969]

I'm not so experienced on the matter, but I just watched THIS VIDEO by Smoking Pipe Liner and it appears there is a format change.
I just jarred up a pound of Pirate Kake yesterday and it was very dense, even hard to cut, so I've not yet seen what he has.
What's your experience?

 

[perdurabo]

I know they recently acquired new equipment to cut their tobacco. So perhaps someone made an expensive mistake and the customer will have to pay for it. I’ve noticed this different cut happening across their brands. I assumed Redburn was done in the confetti cake on purpose, so no complaints. But Briar Fox? Oh hell no! Maybe Jeremy can help us understand what’s going on. One of C&D’s charm is the chunk cut.

 

[perdurabo]

I can’t imagine the Black Frigate crew would want to see that change. The cut in BF Is crucial to it’s burning quality. Chasing Embers, have you noticed a different cut and change in density?

 

[Chasing Embers]

Haven't needed to buy any since 2016, really loaded up. May buy a tin just to see though. If the components are the same, I don't see a problem.

 

[prairiedruid]

I just opened a tin of Black Frigate with a date of 5/29/18 and the cube of goodness does seem to be bigger and less dense than previous tins of BF. However it smoked just fine and tasted like BF to me.

 

[perdurabo]

If it taste the same and you don’t mind a change in burn rate, I quess it isn’t a problem. Every cake I’ve had from C&D has had some age on it, with the exception of Redburn. So Some of you would have a better understanding of the taste profile, if you smoke it consistently.

 

[Chasing Embers]

Wouldn't change the burn rate for me at all. I can get a bowl of ribbons to last as long as some do a folded flake. It's all about how they are packed and smoked.

 

[jeremyreeves]

Hey guys, I saw this video a couple of days ago and found myself a bit confused. The only place I have heard anything like this is from this one video. Our press times are the same, we have not changed anything about our pressing equipment, and it is all in good working order. The swing press which we use to make crumble cakes, plugs, flakes, and ready rubbed products, holds at 2,100 psi. In the case of crumble cakes like Kajun Kake, Briar Fox, Blockade Runner, Black Frigate, Redburn, etc., we press the blocks for 20 minutes at 2,100 psi before transferring each block to vacuum seal for 24 hours. This process has not changed and is the way that crumble cakes were being made at C&D since long before I was at the company.
The change in cut happened in 2016 and has been used on all of our products that use Red Virginia, Bright Virginia, White Burley, Dark Burley, Latakia and Turkish Izmir ribbon. This includes all crumble cakes, 98% of our bulk facings and about half of our tinned facings. If any of you have enjoyed any of these types of products made in the last two years, you have seen that cut.
Autumn Evening, Haunted Bookshop, Old Joe Krantz, Billy Budd, Engine #99, in short, our best selling tobaccos by far, have all featured this cut since 2016, and have continued to be best selling products for us. This cut has also been used in all of the ribbon mixtures for all of the other brands that we manufacture since we use the same components for all the blends that we make. This includes GL Pease, Briarworks, Castello, Two Friends, Druquer's & Sons etc.
As always, if anyone ever has an issue with any of our products, we want to hear about it. I want to hear about it. I will be happy to discuss our processes, tobacco selections, and anything else that I can be of help with.

PM me here, email me at info@cornellanddiehl.com, call us at (800)433-0080.

 

[jpmcwjr]

Now THAT is a fine response. Thanks, Jeremy.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

The change in cut happened in 2016 and has been used on all of our products that use Red Virginia, Bright Virginia, White Burley, Dark Burley, Latakia and Turkish Izmir ribbon.

So, Jeremy sort of legitimizes this guy's complaints, which was that this "confetti cut" makes for a less compact cake. Right?

Have you guys set older cakes next to newer ones like this guy has done?
Just curious. He raises a legit concern for fans of the older more compact cakes.

I do have to add that I have noticed in my last couple of blocks of Briar Fox, that when I opened the cakes to split it into jars, it did just seem to fall apart, like it wasn't even pressed very well. Whereas my older jars have chunks that I cut off from the larger block, my newer jars are like loose tobacco just stuffed in there.
Should we just expect that this is the new status quo? and we should all just adjust?

 

[prairiedruid]

I went back and checked my inventory sheet and the previous Black Frigate I had opened was pre-2016. Maybe the previous cut was better able to stay compressed in the tin or maybe my memory is faulty. Doesn't really matter, as I stated earlier the new tin had the same great smoking characteristics and same great flavor as the previous tins of Black Frigate I have enjoyed.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

It probably isn't a big deal. Honestly, I didn't even try any of the Briar Fox as I was jarring it, so no idea how it smokes. But... on the otherhand, if we are just to accept cakes that just fall apart as our new status quo, then why do they even bother going through the process? Seems like an expensive step that they could just skip.

 

[swilford]

So, Jeremy sort of legitimizes this guy's complaints, which was that this "confetti cut" makes for a less compact cake. Right?

Have you guys set older cakes next to newer ones like this guy has done?

Well, no, that's not what Jeremy said. Firstly, the change in the ribbon cut happened about two and a half years ago, so unless you're digging up very early 2016 tins or before and comparing, that was the last time there was any conscious change. Secondly, the change in cut had to do with the thickness of the ribbon (cuts per inch were increased, reducing cut width), not its length (I'm not sure what 'confetti cut' means, but it seems to imply tiny little pieces). There was a consensus here quite some time ago that the cut on both the flakes and the ribbons was too thick in 2012 and 2013 and we worked to remedy that between 2014 and 2016. We reduced thickness of the flakes first (in part because it was simpler; in part because we thought the situation there most in need of attention) and then made the switch--gradually over a few months--on the ribbons in 2016. These were all planned quality improvements, but have all been in place since then. At the time, some folks noticed the change in cut on the ribbons and the response, as we anticipated, was mixed, but generally positive. No one commented on the crumble cakes at the time, presumably because those changes were less obvious than for, say, Autumn Evening or Haddo's Delight where the ribbon thickness is quite obvious.
Crumble Cakes are pressed ribbon (Briar Fox). They always have been. C&D also makes plugs, which are pressed strip (think Triple Play or Gaslight).
So, the only change C&D has made since early 2016 that would have any effect on Crumble Cakes is the thickness of the ribbon. But the puzzling thing for Jeremy (and the rest of us) is that this is the first we've heard of problems with the pressing of crumble cakes in the thirty months that they've used the thinner cut ribbon. That makes us think something else is going on.
Until your post, we were speculating that the youtube video presenter's tin was from the edge of the block (they come out of presses in 10lb blocks and are cut from there) that we should perhaps have trimmed slightly more than we did (the blocks fray on the edges and we trim the edges off). But, now with your comment, we don't really know what's at work here. While I doubt it, could there be a wider pattern? We know it's not the press itself since we can test it (and we'd see it lots of other places too). Maybe it's the way we're cutting it into smaller blocks? That equipment was refurbished more recently, so maybe we inadvertently introduced a change there? Or this is anecdotal. This stuff is basically hand made (albeit employing heavy equipment) and there is variation from batch to batch.
But, seriously, there's no 'new normal' here that we're aware of. And there's certainly no crazy conspiracy. Cosmic, can you give us any additional indication on when you bought the Briar Fox that was looser and when you bought the Briar Fox that was pressed more tightly? Some indication might help us figure out what's at work here.
Sykes

 

[swilford]

But, seriously, there's no 'new normal' here that we're aware of. And there's certainly no crazy conspiracy. Cosmic, can you give us any additional indication on when you bought the Briar Fox that was looser and when you bought the Briar Fox that was pressed more tightly? Some indication might help us figure out what's at work here.

Quick follow up:
I didn't mean you were suggesting a conspiracy, Cosmic. The youtube guy presented it as such.
Also, yes, if you're comparing pre-early-2016 to post-early-2016, there was a change in the cut, but that didn't change the way the cake held together, at least that we can see or have noticed. If this is something more recent--and assuming there's a pattern--then something else is at work.
Sykes

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Did we watch the same video? The guys asks if this new cut from 2016 made the pieces smaller, this making the cakes looser, of which even Sykes has confirmed. He just made up that term "confetti cut" I think.

Yes, the guys is comparing pre-2015 cakes to newer after 2016 cakes. He doesn't specify the years all through the video, but if you note what he says you can piece it together.
And, I noted that I have noticed that my last few bulk shipments of Briar Fox was also just falling apart.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Oh,yeh, I think the youtuber was making it out to be a conspiracy for entertainment value, IMO. He seems kinda nutty, lol.

at least that we can see or have noticed. If this is something more recent--and assuming there's a pattern--then something else is at work.

That is the bottom line I think the OP was after.

Thanks Sykes.

 

[swilford]

Did we watch the same video? The guys asks if this new cut from 2016 made the pieces smaller, this making the cakes looser, of which even Sykes has confirmed. He just made up that term "confetti cut" I think.

Yes, the guys is comparing pre-2015 cakes to newer after 2016 cakes. He doesn't specify the years all through the video, but if you note what he says you can piece it together.

I rewatched the beginning: yes, pre-2016 to post-2016 is what he's comparing. I'm still wondering what's at work here, though, since surely we would have heard complaints on brick density far sooner than now--2.5 years represents a whole hell of a lot of tins of crumble cakes--if the change to the ribbon cut that is then pressed into cakes were the cause. And the OP mentions that he hasn't noticed density change on Pirate Kake, which employs exactly the same process as Briar Fox and Kajun Kake. Anyway, we're still left trying to figure out what's at work here.
Incidentally, as always, if you're not happy with that Briar Fox, give us a shout and we'll replace it. Do you have any you bought at the same time still in the tin so that we could actually have a look?
Sykes

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I never complain, nor do I ask for freebies. I am happy to just roll with it, as always.
Thanks though. ::

 

[prairiedruid]

Anyone have an open tin of pre-2016 Black Frigate to check the thickness?
My tin from 2018 the brownie of goodness measures between 1.25 inches and 1.325 inches thick with no pressure. Unfortunately of the 21 tins of BF I have left all are 2016 or newer. Again I want to make clear the new tin of BF tastes great and smokes great. It seems less dense but is it the power of suggestion from watching the video that makes me perceive this?

 

[jeremyreeves]

I should mention that when we were in the midst of investigating the change to the cut that we ultimately implemented back in 2016 we did experiments with regard to cooking Red VA Cavendish, pressing Crumble Cakes and overall packing and smoking results. The finer cut performed excellently. It held up through the rigorous process of steaming and drying required to make Red Cavendish, it blended more completely and provided more articulate flavor, and it pressed solid. It still does. When we find a vacuum sealed block that has lost seal, we reseal it. In the event that a block becomes fluffy, which does not happen very often, (though I have seen it happen occasionally through the course of routine quality control checks which I do all the time throughout our processing) the cause has been due to slightly low moisture in the blend prior to pressing. Simple. We remove it from the batch and make more if necessary.